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Monofilament

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Rannith, Jan 27, 2018.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    CC 13 seems to be the baseline for a trained soldier, with range 12-14 covering basic troops from less likely to see combat (Tech-Bee), to those with larger training emphasis on CC (Keisotsu, CG, etc). 19+ range is the domain of troops extensively training CC or true martial artists (Imperial Agents, PanO knights, JSA samurai, some Hassassins, etc.) and the 15-18 range is largely for troops semi-competent in melee, but not to the extent that it'd make a reliable difference in game. Most likely treated by CB as "we would like this unit to be 1-2 pts. more expensive, but don't want to give it anything useful" :P
     
    regelridderen and T. Rex Pushups like this.
  2. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget about range mods, burst and other things. Knauf is one of the best snipers in all Infinity, because he has BS13, which is good on a sniper (ask ninjas about it ^^), has MSV-1+mimetism and can combine his masksmanship L1 (= shock damage) with multi sniper rifle for a fearsome B2 DA+shock. He can reliably hit and kill most troops in the game in one order and is even a decent ARO piece thanks to mimetism and shock DA ammo.

    Whereas he is bad in melee. To be honest, he is better than average, but he is still very very very far from a dedicaced melee troop (and i'm not even talking about the best).

    You just can't compare BS and CC score. BS11 is average, BS13 is good, BS15 is really high. That is because between burst and range modifiers, you WILL hit a lot - and you don't have to reach melee for that. CC13 is average, CC15 is ... well average too, CC20 is just enough to be considered as a dedicaced melee troop, and CC25 is the top - and in truth, skills (martial arts, natural born warrior ...) are as important as raw CC attribute.
     
  3. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    You cynic you, surely they are actually putting it on for a noble reason like to convince people they really should buy this CC 16 mini instead of food for their kids or paying the rent.
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    We're buying them already for BS 13 and other useful traits :P
     
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  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    CC does also include John-Wick style close-quarter pistolwork, combined with grappling, defense and other qualities. So yes, Knauf is considerably happier at long range, but this is meant to show that he can pull his pistol or knife and get work done better than your standard grunt.

    However, he's still chopped meat if he comes across any legitimate Close Combat contender. He doesn't have much chance against a basic warband like a Shaolin or Jaguar, and he's dead as fried chicken against the likes of a Haramaki, Steel Phalanx character, etc.

    I think that CC in the 15-18 range mostly represents that "they're statistically likely to beat a typical trained soldier, and occasionally they will even beat an elite melee combatant with a bit of luck" (this does happen in game... A CC23 model with Martial Arts Level 3 rolls very low, maybe giving a total dice result of 7 or 8, and the CC16 model just manages to beat them with a 9-13.)

    But CC stats above 20, plus martial arts, are designed with the risk-vs-reward mechanic of close combat very clearly in mind. Armies get a lot of tools to deter abilities that help close combatants close the distance, such as camo or smoke. These tools include antipersonnel mines, crazy koalas, mad traps, direct templates, sniffer, sensor, msv2+, etc...

    So actually getting Kitsune into close combat with that high-value enemy target is difficult. However, if she does get there, CB wants her to statistically obliterate that target with a dominant F2F roll.

    This is a big contrast to simply shooting the TAG from range, where the risks and Order expenditure are significantly less. Less risk, but less reward as well.
     
    #85 barakiel, Feb 1, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  6. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    True enough. **Sigh** newspaper sandwiches for dinner again kids!!
     
  7. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    Hats off to @Stiopa, and @barakiel for restrained and gentlemanly responses throughout this thread. You two are making this community better.

    @Rannith, I'll echo what the others have said. The game has changed to the point that the Sierra is capable of filling a different role now. Losing monomines for this was a worthwhile trade.
     
  8. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    @grampyseer Thanks for that, I'm just a tad displeased with the loss of my favourite minelayer, not to mention the layer of my favourite mine. But done is done. I will have to dig deeper into the Pan-O toybox and see what remains.
     
  9. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    @Hecaton if you are still around could you give me an assessment of this list I put together. Anybody else too please.
    [​IMG] First try
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    [​IMG] AQUILA Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 58)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD MULTI Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 64)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I wouldn't split the groups like that; after losing even 1-2 units both groups will be order-starved. Unless you're getting closer to 17-20 orders it's probably better to have one full combat group, with second one acting as support.

    I'd also drop the LGL on Fusiliers and use the SWC elsewhere; with ML and MSR this is going to be a defensive fireteam, and most likely won't go anywhere where the LGL might be useful.
     
  11. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    @Stiopa thanks for that, I have never been sure about the way people fill up one group and then just have a couple off to the side in another group since that group is going to be even more order starved than these ones even before they start. I'll drop the LGL and re-jigger things (technical term) a bit.
     
  12. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    Try to separate Aquila and Swiss because they are the only attackers and both need many orders. And you don't have any offencive Heavy weapons. Swiss with HMG x10 effective than with rifle.

    +1
     
  13. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    How's this?
    [​IMG] First try
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AQUILA Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 58)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

    5.5 SWC | 280 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  14. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Better ;) How are you using Sierra? If as a defender, I'd switch Sierra and Bulleteer around. Sierra will probably go into Null state slowing enemy down, so it's loss will cost your main group an order. If you're using it as an attacker it's fine as is. I'd also switch Auxilia and Bolts; if you're planning on using that Aquila Lieutenant in attack he might go down, and then you'd want Bolts regular orders in your main group. I'd also change the plain Combi loadout, right now it doesn't bring much to the list.

    As for the uneven combat groups: Most often the small group will be only supporting the main one, not attack on its own. In this case you'll want ARO troop in there, so their loss won't hurt your first group's order pool, plus support troops like Doc, Engineer, etc. I often split those two between groups; if one specialist needs more orders to get to injured/damaged trooper, he goes into the main group. For example if I plan to advance deeply with TAG and/or Remotes, Machinist will have to be in the first group. If I'm going to use infantry as my main assault troops, Trauma Doc will be there. Specialist that will only support defensive troops can be in the second group, because he can be deployed only 1-2 orders away from them.

    It's good to have an assault unit in the second group as well, though; sometimes you'll have those 3-4 orders there with no good unit to spend them on. Bulleteers, Peacemakers or AD troops are great there, because they're either fast or can deploy close to the enemy, and don't need a lot of orders to do some damage.

    [​IMG] First try
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] AQUILA Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 58)
    [​IMG] BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    [​IMG] BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  15. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    @Rannith It's better to have doctor(engineer) in another group then attacker with W(STR).(Just replace them)
    And too low orders for bulleteer because bolts are expencive for doing nothing. 3 Fugazi and 2 Mulebots cost same 40 points, but give you 5 orders.
    IMHO, I almost always take LTfusilier because aquila will be hunted(especially after opponent recognizes that it is LT) and you don't have ChoC.

    And you still have 20 pts for something interesting(HEXA KHD, for example)
     
  16. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    You need all orders for main assault unit. Specialist still need ~3 orders to reach it's body and heal it with palbot. It's too expencive for the main group.

    But how many people, so many ways.
     
  17. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately i dont have any Mulebots or any Assembled Fugazi. I thought I would take the Lt Aquila Guard because everyone would expect the Lt to be in the big defensive Team at the back.
    As for the Aquila with a Combi not doing much I agree but after setting up the link team I had next to no SWC left same goes for bulleteers, pathfinders or AD troops.
    Still a relearning process.
     
  18. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Are you playing any specific missions yet? That's always a helpful consideration for list building.
     
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  19. Rannith

    Rannith Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately no clue. I think I said earlier that I am lucky to get one game a month. Hopefully that day will be Sunday, otherwise a month from then.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    You are misapplying the Gambler's Fallacy. This is a pretty common mistake.

    It is incorrect to say "Because I rolled X with 1 dice, my chance of rolling Y increases with the second dice."

    It is correct to say "Because I am rolling 2 dice, my chance of achieving at least 1 result of Y increases compared to if I just rolled 1 dice."

    In your example of 104 d6, it is correct to say the statistical probability of not scoring a single hit is less than 0.000001% rounded up. The probability of this result is actually so miniscule I can't find a calculator that doesn't round up on this.

    You can calculate these statistics through binomial distribution.