Monofilament/Vorpal and Protheion

It doesn’t interact at all, as no Wounds are inflicted, the target just enters the Dead State.

That’s why he’s also got an EM CCW and the Samaritans also have DA CCWs.

 

Shouldn't a Monofilament CCW still inflict a wound simultaneously with putting the target in the dead state since it uses normal ammo and doesn't have the non-lethal trait?

 

Apparently not. :-(

https://infinitythewiki.com/index.php?title=Melee_Weapon_Profile

 

Hmm, yeah it probably would have been clearer if "Mono" was an ammo type. But then you'd probably have overlap with the Traits section.

 

Just think how funny it would look listed as “Non-lethal, State: Dead” (which would almost work, except for the save bit...).

 

I don't think you have to roll a wound, if you look at how Coup de Grâce works There seems to be a precedent in the rules for passing from one state to another without giving a wound giving a power up to Protheion.

If you look at the example of Protheion: -
During the next Order, the Caliban declares a CC Attack against the Unconscious Fusilier, performing a Coup de Grâce so that the target automatically passes from Unconscious to Dead State, without performing a Saving Roll. At the end of the Order, the Caliban places a Power-Up 2 Token besides himself, showing that his Wounds Attribute is now 3.

Now if you look at the Coup de Grâce: -
Coup de Grâce: If the Enemy Target is in Unconscious or Shasvastii-Embryo State when declaring the CC Attack, then, without needing to perform a roll, the target automatically goes from Unconscious to Dead State without the possibility of making a Saving Roll.

There is no wound delivered via Coup de Grâce just death but it still delivers a power up to Protheion, so why is Monofilament or Vorpal different?

 

Have I misread, sorry to pester but it seems pretty huge to be able to one shot Hi's to get Power ups, you would still want to use their more conventional CC weapons on cheerleaders etc. allowing you to milk more points per kill.

 

Doesn't that interpretation actually ignore the dead state? The very first bullet (page 154). Activation: A trooper loses all the points of his Wounds/STR attribute, and takes one more point of damage. So monofilament putting someone in dead actually makes the trooper lose all the wounds. So it would seem to me that you fulfil the prothieon requirements of causing wounds in CC?

 

Those are activations for the Dead state, not effects of the Dead state. Basically, activation is what happens to enter that state, it is not what happens when you enter the state.

Monofilament and Dogged will just unceremoniously dump you in the Dead State, the trooper is Dead; it doesn't enter the state the normal way.

 

Is that not how Coup de Grâce works it just dumps you into the dead state no matter what level of Unconscious the trooper is they enter the dead state but that is used as an example of a Protheion power up?

 

But CB gave Coup De Grace it's own justification inside the example, circumventing the rules logic that applies;

 

I think you make my argument for me. Activation is what happens to enter the state. There is only one way to activate dead. There is no rule for monofilament other than "state = dead." It's not about when, it's about how. How do you enter the dead state? And again it aligns with the example for Coup de Grace and protheion. I'm reading the equal sign as this is the same as activating the dead state.

@ijw how about a provisional rules answer :D

 

What do you need more?
The effect of the weapon is to apply the DEAD state to the enemy.

 

Activation is what happens if another rule doesn’t put you directly into the State. Which is what the State: X Trait does.

And the rules answer is in post #2. ;-)

 

How is the way mono/vorpal and Coup de Grâce make a unit enter the dead state different?

please break it down Barney-Style as it looks like I'm missing something fundamental.

 

They aren't, they both take the Trooper to Dead State without 'losing' points of Wounds/Structure.

The Protheion example wasn't updated to take into account changes in Coup de Grâce. :-(

 

Answer is good enough for me then.

 

@ijw was this an intended nerf to all protheion? As coup de grace is automatic you can’t eat something unless you cause a wound due to an ARM roll in cc. No eating an unconscious model ever. It significantly weakens the ability this edition.

 

While I, too, would hate to see CdG lose the ability for Proth troopers to gain wounds, it is not necessarily true that it's impossible. The language is ambiguous, but it seems like you could choose to roll for CC (normal roll) and if they take that wound (fairly likely), they would enter the dead state and also supply you with another power-up token.

Now all of this is predicated on what IJW just said. The question I have is that @ijw's last comment suggests that it's the example that is in error, not the language of the CdG rule. Was that the intent of you statement? Could you also verify whether or not my suggestion here works?