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Mobile Brigada with Missile Launcher should cost 39.

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by WildSam, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I have no idea what you mean by CD.

    So you're saying HMGs and MLs are great on HI? I agree.

    Saying the SG pays more SWC than a Zuyong for its HMG because of its TO camo/platform is fine, I agree. But why doesn't the SG pay more for its ML? Or if we look at the reverse, why does the Zuyong pay less SWC for it's HMG compared to its ML? You said HMGs have more value because of their burst. Yet the higher burst weapon is cheaper in this case.
    You could very well be correct about the link options making a difference. Unfortunately there are no link options in vanilla. The FK can actually make a DUO while the others can't lol. And even if you're correct, that would only eliminate the FK from the equation. Leaving us with a MB and a Jan. Nothing points to one or the other being in error.

    It seems clear the Zuyong HMG is another unexplained cost. Or maybe it's their ML, who knows.

    As has been said before, there are no 1:1 comparisons. No identical Faction lists, loadouts, stats, and skills. So any of those things can be a factor. Your comparison of the Hac Tao and SG may both have TO camo now but their skill list isn't the same and the SG ML loadout is now different. Unless you know the exact value of that light shotgun, under those conditions, we're no closer to figuring out the MB ML.
     
  2. WildSam

    WildSam Member

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    I don't like your fractions theory. Compare with Janissaries. Brigadas got one less WIP and Courage instead of Religious.
    Similiar Brigada profiles (HMG, BSG) cost 2 more. ML costs 3 more. Ok, may be there are wierdly aligning fractions for Courage+ML?
    But Grenzers got Courage+ML and seem don't get that rounded up (they even got same WIP in case you suspect extra stats are non-integer-costed). Untill you're really mean and want to pretend MSV:1 accidentally outweights that wierd fraction. And MSV:2 too, given Agemas' Courage+ML. And Fireteam: Core due to Keisotsu. Oh, also Camouflage because Tankhunters.

    Low point models are easier to explain as cornercasing plus basic cost of model with base stats seems to be really low.

    SWC costs depend on unit type and suspected power (they don't seem to be formulaic). That's known and trivial to check.
    Point costs are much more rigid and I'm not aware of any case of different units paying different costs for same equipment (until it's effectively basic part of unit cost, thus irrelevant fo my point) beside Brigada ML and Unidron Spitfire. Explaining those two as mistakes seems much more solid option than ignoring hundreds of matches.

    At least worthy of checking with designers (what I'm trying to do after my warcor claimed it's "because Brigadas are HI" (which clearly isn't the case) and refused to ship question to CB).
     
    #22 WildSam, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    If we increase those base MB by one point that hacking device would finally match up with all the others too. For some reason it's 9pts when all others are only 8pts. Fixes the Hacking device and ML with one shot. :P
     
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  4. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    Except your not checking with designers, you are hoping on a forum and demanding change because the math you did doesn't match. Again, if you have the exact formula, then great, if not you are just speculating and going about it the wrong way.
     
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  5. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    They didn't make a mistake.
     
  6. Alz

    Alz Well-Known Member

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    Woops, my bad. CD is the spanish term for BS

    I might have explained myself poorly. High burst weapons - active turn weapons - get "more benefit" from higher stats and modifier related skills due to rolling more dices. That's why they're more SWC expensive for better troops. Thatss why you pay 1 SWC for an HMG Fusilier and 2 for an Aquila / Swiss

    With MSR or Missile launchers you roll a very similar amount of dice in both active and reactive turn and their "bonuses" are less dependant on dice, to a certain point. Range and Special Ammo give them power that's non Burst dependant, while with an HMG you want as many hits as possible.

    The reason the HMG is cheaper here is because they add LSG to the ML profiles. Whether it is to increase the points, which I see reasonable for the Zuyong, or to give a short range defense for that expensive 60+ point Swiss, that we dont know.

    In the end, SWC is more subject to "handmade" adjustment. IIRC new JSA's REM are more SWC expensive due to fluff reasons. Alguacile LT costs 1 SWC while Fusilier or Kazak dont. I think there was a similar point in regards to HRL troopers SWC. It might just be that they decided against 1.5 SWC Zuyong ML and that's it.

    Regarding the "point incident", MB hacker is the only troop that comes to mind that pays 9 point for a Hacker device. That bothers me a bit more, tbh.
     
  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    After looking at factions and profiles it seems the ML is valued higher than an HMG. Plenty of troopers with 1SWC HMGs and 1.5SWC MLs. Strange the HMGs cost more points, but whatever.

    I can't come up with many reasons why the MB ML costs one more point. Because anything that affects the ML i would assume would affect the HMG as well. And the only way I can explain that it doesn't would be to assume it rises similar to how the SWC of a ML goes up at a different rate than the HMG. But I just don't have the desire to look into it any closer.
     
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  8. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Cost and SWC are unrelated except by correlation.


    SWC has a rough association with troop type, 1 SWC for LI, WB, REM; 1.5 SWC for MI, 2 SWC for HI, TAG.

    Certain weapons can override the SWC. Missile Launcher and Rocket Launchers are common examples that overrides the SWC to have a minimum of 1.5 SWC (meaning HI and TAG would still pay 2). With exceptions.

    Red Fury is an example of a weapon that overrides both minimum and maximum SWC to 1 SWC. With exceptions.

    The golden rule of SWC is that all SWC rules can be excepted for no reason.


    Supposedly there is a formula that determines Cost. This includes partial points that must then be rounded. It is just as likely that most Brigada profiles are near .5 and rounded down and the HD and ML don't as it is the other way around. More importantly it wouldn't make a difference so who cares.

    What I can say is that they didn't make an oopsie.
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    What's the advantage in rounding the points off compared to just moving the decimal place over one so everything increases by a factor of ten? I assume it's just to keep the game 'simpler'.

    The MB ML could cost between 395-405 points.

    20 order lists could potentially swing 100 points in either direction. That's 3.33% or one more/less Fusilier order.
     
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  10. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Technically I don't know but that's a fair guess.
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Rounding, apparently. because the basic points formula is fixed and is never hand-adjusted.

    First, SWC is not formulaic, it is hand-adjusted. Points is formulaic, and is never hand-adjusted.



    Yeah, when the Keisotsu first came out, they were 0.5SWC for everything. Even the Mulitsniper. Sure, still BS10, but you could load up a squad of Keisotsu with all the toys and still not go over SWC.
     
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