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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    Really dissapointed, KotHS still remains overpriced shit (except for fd spitfire, but that is basically montesa).
    So we still have vulnerable HI lt, with no way to compensate it. Seraph got nice update but is outshined by tik.
    Best fireteam is still magisters and crusade fireteam, so adding other stuff was quite worthless unless you want to have fun and not win.
    Compared to IA, MO looks very meh. Happy for YJ players.
     
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    TIkbalang while being a great TAG just became 16 pts more expensive than Seraph's HMG.

    It's not terrible per se, but MO is really lacking cheap orders.
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I disagree completely.

    Regarding Sepulchre - we get either a dedicated forward deployment platform to replace Montesa, complete with Holo2, or a CoC on a useful unit. Imagine leading with your Lt, losing it at some point, and then being able to use Sepulchre as tip of the spear again. With proper tactics you can use aggressive Lt. for the whole game without going into LoL - or only on last turns, possibly being in position in which it doesn't matter.

    Seraph and Tik are two different beasts, and both will have its uses. Auxbot_3 getting Super-Jump is an important change. Overall we gained two HMGs to shoot our way out of DZ (and Sepulchre works that way now as well).

    Crusade fireteam is a deathstar, it clocks in at around 200 pts. Most of the time you'll want something else. Actually, Teutons + Magisters might work as our basic Core right now, aided by OS and Santiago.

    Overall I can see OS working well as a basic fireteam, especially with F-K and BF support. Teutons are a disappointment, but might actually work. We got more flexibility, firepower, HI protection in form of KHD+Tinbot. We'll be better than fine.
     
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  5. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    The strategy of ''Shove a highly suicidal and aggressive Lieutenant into your opponents face in a blaze of suicidal glory and leave yourself with a still capable CoC unit.'' is, as always, a valid one, if extremely unsubtle.
     
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  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Especially in an army with such Lt's as Joan, De Fersen, Santiago/Father-Knight with Spitfire. You go in, bait enemy to spend orders hunting one durable target, and then you follow up with another.

    "Subtle" is for Varuna.
     
  7. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    The time for subtlety is over.
    It is time for war.
    For pure, unadulterated brutalisation.

    It is time to cram as many dudes in servo armor upon the table and crush the enemy.

    For armorgeddon is here!



    ...sorry if I shitpost too much.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well there is one hope for Teutons.

    It's probably blant, unreasonable optimism and hope but hey what else is left ?

    They will receive more changes/skills/whatever once the ITSX narrative arc will reach it's climax/conclusion.

    (well at least I hope so :( )
     
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  9. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    the sepulchre with forward deployment is more expensive than the old montesa no ? Yes arguably better due to at minimum stealth + ma. However holo 2 isnt all that, I said it before and Ill make the claim again, he is an ok unit, where he could have dropped holo and gotten mimetism or odd and made a fantastic midfield gunfighter.

    I think with teutons you are just trying to make what you can of a shitty situation. You are honestly still far better doing santiago + magister core + support than teuton + magister core. The toolbox nature of the santiago makes it miles better than the teuton, hell the stealth alone is extremely valuable.

    If the teuton was at least unhackable to go with its lack of cube it would be one thing, but it remains a knight that is wholy confused about its identity that is basically being shoehorned in without changes.

    we all know that saying about polishing a turd.
     
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  10. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    Paying 50 points for a back line units seems strange to me. You propose to use it as an attack piece after lt dies, which can result in a 3rd turn LoL. We just have different playstyle then :)
    I missed that tik is no longer is a minelayer. Even using seraph is pricy for MO, but I agree that it is a good change.
    People used it before with success, so I don't see a problem now. Especially with a discount for hospitallers. You can take warcore and techbee for cheap orders.
    Loss of fusiler lt option hurts a lot. We gain flexibility and variety but to me it still feels worse then magisters and crusade fireteams.
     
  11. Elessar

    Elessar 80stalgic console cowboy

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    But why has to ...? Still a mild Deathstar yet the termal exhaust port is now big as the entire (no) Moon.

    At least we still had 2W and a quite a good doctor (for PanO standars) in the team to try to salvage, or 6 BTS against jammer/isolation and Santiago/Fairy Dust against hacking. Still not tight proof I know, so if everything fails (as it will) there's Inspiring Leadership to bring the guys around or ... we simply reform leaving Joan apart?

    All in all apart from Montesa bike and Santiago that are flat out a big improvements, I need to process all other choices. However Teutons without stealth and most appalling a clear role, will definitely remain in the Cloister to perform amanuensis's chores.
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You aware that as soon as someone bites rhe dust you cannot reform this link ?
     
  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Yup, seems that way ;) For me this particular CoC isn't a backline unit, it's a safety net and additional attacker. Shukra, Hai Dao, Kempeitai - those I'd describe as backline support.

    Tik will probably get that AP HMG (at least I hope it wasn't just a rumour). In general, using TAGs transforms a list a lot. Both of these will see gameplay.

    Sure. I'm not arguing that it's not a viable option, just that it's too expensive to be a default one. It's a fun, efficient fireteam (especially with Wildcard Santiago) and should definitely see play. I'm simply saying that we have other viable options.

    And I think this is the exact reason we got CoC. We can't field cheap, hidden Lt. anymore. Which is actually fun, MO army led by a non-religious LI from the back didn't feel right. Now we'll have to play much more all-in.

    Overall I don't see the net changes as restricting, but switching emphasis. It'll force some players to change their game style, but that doesn't mean that the new one is less viable.

    That's exactly what I'm doing. I'm not thrilled about Teutons not getting more changes, but I'm looking for a way to make them work and be viable. I'm pretty sure that there is a Teuton-shaped hole somewhere, even if Hospitallers are a better choice most of the time. And with them losing Magister support the competition might be tighter than people think.
     
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  14. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    If that someone is the link leader yes, otherwise no the link remains.
     
  15. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    Nonsense, you have a nifty 3 man Hospitalier link and a Joan that just kinda wanders off...

    I mean, unless the leader dies you usually dont break this link.
     
  16. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    I'm happy.

    They fixed the super-jump on the Seraph, Teutonic Knights got a boost, the KotHS is improved, Tikbalang is interesting, better fire team options, we have a CoC model, and KotHS kept their Holo2.

    Only thing I'm disappointed about is that the Knights of Santiago have lost the Boarding Shotgun model, which I currently have completely painted. Frankly this is a baffling change to me, since the model exists, it's in the box, and I'm not seeing how it breaks anything to leave it in.

    Anybody have an insights? Maybe it made the Santiago too cheap? Going off the Hospitaller's it appears to be the difference of a point between Combi Rifle and Boarding Shotgun.
     
  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    @RogueJello: The only reason I can come up with is that it'd give every fireteam access to a shotgun. But if that's the case, then it's just silly.
     
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  18. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    Taking some of my thoughts from the other thread and building on them:

    It's good to see the Santiagos have a core fireteam still. And by that I mean Teutonics are incredibly disappointing. They still fail to function and the magisters will end up forming FT with Santiago knights and leaving them in the dust. Lack of stealth with still no eclipse is just baffling. Nco just doesn't help with this faction. 39 point 2 swc nco vs 43 point 1 swc LT. Still 1 swc LT. Who thinks this is a good option? We're very thin on LTs now as is. Hospitaliers, Santiago, Father Knights or this if you're avoiding characters. Feeling the belt tightening already. The Haris will have the same problems as a larger team and will likely be made of the haris teuton, magister and Santiago spitfire. It might work providing a relatively cheap HI haris.

    Side note small changes to FKs: LT option gained FO and FO option lost nimbus grenades. And the duo is just base. Overall nice but I always liked the nimbus in theory, it was just impractical to get onto the table with the duo rules and profile. Now it would have been more appealing but a 45 hi FO isnt looking too shabby.

    Our TAG pool is looking pretty interesting. I'm gushing over the hmg seraph, but I'm a bit miffed on the Tik. It just seems overpriced when you have a super jumping hmg sigting right there at 79 points. Auxbot 3 is the best sequel and I can't wait to see the next one. I will probably be running the seraph more in vanilla and MO and I already loved the little guy.

    Order Sergeants may have become a default fireteam in MO for me. Not that they got better necessarily, they just didn't get worse. Probably going to be using them primarily to camp as a defensive link for everything else to operate. With the Santiago, FK and black friar linkability there is potential for them to roll out in support of a spitfire with a msv drop bear chucker in tow. FKs offer up a lot of tankiness but I'm not sure how to make them compete with Santiagos. Still can't link a regular HD with sucks.

    Now the best for last: Hospitaliers. This originally looked to be a fantastic change with points drops as I regularly love to run the now named crusade team, but looking at how its shaking up, I'm becoming more horrified. The restriction on the fireteam is pretty much a deal breaker. I used to do all sorts of shenanigans to squeeze orders out of the team with Joan's super LT order breaking the link to coordinate and reforming, but now it's super fragile. Lose one guy and you're done. Enjoy your "haris". And the hmg always eats a crit at some point during the game. Always. DeFerson is struggling now more than ever, even with the 2 point discount, being eclipsed by the Santiago khd (anyone else seeing a theme here?) He will be missed. That leaves us with the regular core and the haris, both of which are actually rather nice by themselves but the death star is dead frankly. 4 Hospitaliers and a Santiago khd is our future main HI core. The haris will be a good choice to run along side a defensive OS fireteam.

    Rounding up here, the Sepulchre is okay. He's not amazing because of the LT options we have are so damn expensive at minimum clocking in at 34 and 1 swc or 35 points. It does combine a back up LT with specialist capabilities so it might work out? I was hoping for some other changes to help him out such as Lt OS or teutonics becoming good or cheaper but I guess that's not happening. He looks better in vanilla where you have better LT options. The FD profiles are nice and give some midfield shenanigans.

    Overall, I'm actually rather shocked and disappointed. It came out looking very strong with the early leaks but my god there are now bigger issues in MO than there were before on just a basic level. Our Lt and order pools are completely wrecked and our gains dont mean anything with those malfunctions. Santiago's have frankly taken over the faction as a bandaid to everything. Our characters dont work. All of them. Joan is better in Vanilla. HOW DID YOU DO THIS? I'll have to do some tinkering around but I got to say I'm not sure I'm going to play MO after this because it's just going to be so hard to make lists that aren't crippled by the Lt. This was a great win for Vanilla PanO though.
     
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  19. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

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    MO problem always was that one order outshined others. First Teutons, then hospitallers, now santiagos. I theme my MO as Santiago order so I am particially happy. However, CB rampaged paramedic and bsg profile. KHD while may seem nice, is only wip 13, bts 3, no camo, which is quite weak for khd. We don't have anything better and it gives easy access to remotes so it will be popular.
     
  20. hansthehuman

    hansthehuman Order of Saint John

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    Just gotta say, I have been doing nothing today apart from looking at MO in army builder.
    - I really like all the changes, but I have had a tendency to play Hospi/Magi link and Mobility Joan for the past couple of months

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10
    FATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 43)
    ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    BULLETEER Heavy Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    3.5 SWC | 298 Points
    Open in Infinity Army


    This is an example of a new link dynamic we see in MO.
    Multiple Father-Knights in link.
     
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