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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I don't think you need the chain of command in your Doomlink.

    Its going to rush to the ennemy and even if Joan get killed you still get the link men individual orders + some order you may convert. Anyway you want Joan to be the last to die ...

    You would rather do this with TO camo on the table to rambo if you get first turn and the ennemy doesn't have a strong ARO presence (if he has, you may want to use first turn to clean that, then turttle and rush on turn 3) :

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Simple and straightforward ...

    For scenarios with many objectives, a TO FO might replace the second sniper.
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    "Hardcore" would imply they're hard to use up to full potential, like i.e. JSA.
    MO appears to be simply weak. They're not better than the sum of its parts and have a couple crippling weakpoints affected by important aspects of the game. That is a rather simple but dire problem.
     
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  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    MO are weak ? You should say that to my gaming partners. The Pulpy on my shelve think otherwise ;D

    (yes I'm being pretentious here :-) )

    1. The number of order you have is not everything. When you move a fireteam able to shoot / complete objectives / heal people on the way / hack etc ... you are doing more with one order than most list with multiple orders.
    Another key is to have such a positining with your ARO so that the opponent will loose order trying to reach you only to get blasted by superior firepower (you can use TO MSR sergent in multiple ARO in the last oponnent orders for exemple)

    2. We used to have the fusilier ... now the lieutenant has to be a HI. And he is usually obvious. But hidden among other HI he is hard to reach. And he may use its own order to get some job done. But that is definitly a weakness.

    3. You still have Hospitalier HMG. Can't link with Magister but it can with these wild card santiago and a sergent. Nearly as good for me. And we get two extra HMG platform : the seraph and the tikbalang.
    Other options to leave your DZ include TO sergent (TOFO or MSR. A sniper on a tower in the middle of the table is usually unexpected and sometime get juicy line of sight to cheerleaders or specialists) and Crusader.
    By the way, why leave your DZ if you don't need to ? (and in some missions you don't really need to)


    I'm not worried about varuna and tohaa. But Aleph is tought ... damn TO snipers with NWI can really pin you down if you get unlucky on dices and the table doesn't have space for you to approach in total cover.
     
  4. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    1. But this isnt a solution, fireteams arent a unique thing to MO, other lists which can pump out more orders also have access to fire teams. One of the points teslarod was making , was that IA is another HI centric sectorial that can very much pump out an insane amount of orders, while still bringing fully capable HI fireteams.

    2. A dedicated attacker, has the tools in the active turn to remove your lt if they know who it is, the most you can do is make it as order inefficient as possible. This is just the nature of the game, that's why a lot of people prefer safe anonymous lt. , im not claiming this is the only way to play, but it was a fair criticism.

    3. But the majority of the missions absolutely necessitate you leave your deployment zone to score, hell a lot of the classifieds require you do things in your opponent's portion of the board as well now. So while yes, you can castle up in decapitation, most missions need you to do that forward push. I agree the tik is a great piece, i think seraph hmg, is also pretty good, they just lack the consistency for the price the old hospitaller + magister link used to bring(tik comes relatively close), a consistency that was removed for seemingly no reason.
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    You have TOFOOS to be already out of the DZ. And a lot of scenarios don't reward you to move out your DZ before turn 3.
    One of the weaknesses of IA is their lack of MSVs. They have Ruishi and Haidao and that's all. MO as some MSVs, TO camo and even Albedo and can play around all this. It would have been good to see BF Sniper to be able to link, yes, but we can do without it.
    I trust @Marduck and I have the same feeling. We have lots one way to have a BS17 B5 HMG but we have gained others and a lot of flexibility in exchange. And Fusiliers were as obvious Lt as our knights now. Just easier to kill or isolate. And really, the old MO was boring as hell. 5 months to play the same FT to be ready for the satellite get me wishing to play anything else. Here, at least, I can have two different lists that can do the job.

    But one way to see if what we say is right or not would be to see you play against each other.
     
  6. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean all the argument made are false.

    I just say you can't just say "MO are underpowered period".

    1. Not a lot of sectorial can have such strong, relisient and versatile fireteams. iA is one for sure but they have other weaknesses I'm sure.

    2. If you play it right the way I think, your opponent nshould have to crush your whole army before getting to your lieutenant. If you rush to the ennemy with your HI 5 men and your lieutenant sure it will die. If it hidding behind all the army with TO MSR ready for ambush that's another story. I would agree that pitcher and hacker, em lgl and a few other things are hard counter. But not the opponent rushing for the lieutenant.

    3. Sure but you usually don't need your whole army to leave your DZ. And especially not your HI link. You can have a TOFO or a crusader go for Rambo. Or you can just kill thing from far.

    Well of course all this is just theory. My point is just to say you have several ways to play MO and they are competitive IMHO.
     
  7. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    but MO and IA have the same amount of MSV profiles? 2.

    We lost an efficient sturdy way to have bs 17 hmg, gained one with an OS bolted in. It isnt as good, I dont think this is particularly up for debate, the argument we can make is that the tik and seraph hmg pick up some of the slack, as i said the tik is almost equivalent to the link due to mimetism swinging odds back in its favor.

    the fusiliers were not more vulnerable than the knights, as they tended to be well reserved in the back area. and having 3 identical possible Lts. in the back line discouraged assassination runs, since it required triple the investment . This isnt even me, I've been using joan and santiago lt since HSN3 ,i am ok with living dangerously, but other players like the option.

    I might be alone in this, but I dont think pano can viably sit in their deployment zone until turn 3 even if they have bottom of turn. No matter the ARO net you posses, the active turn player picks engagements and will ultimately have the initiative. So you have to offset their ability to do objectives and protect yours, you cant realistically do that castling up.

    oh man I'd love to play people too. If there was an infinity game that was just a mirror of the table top it'd be fantastic. But as it stands plan tickets costing multiple armies really prevents those cross meta encounters.

    @Marduck

    1) no you are correct, but they have other strengths as well.
    2)I think the army encourages using your tools offensively, but I am in agreeance that you have to push then retreat with your 5 man link unless you have all but crippled your enemy. But in the end I still think such a link is still vulnerable to direct assault, specially because as i mentioned your opponent picks the engagements, bs 17 hmg is great and all, but burst 5 bs 16 hmg is mathematically superior to your burst 2. But like I said , to me its a matter of making the task of hunting your lt. as disagreeable as possible.
    3) like I said above , I believe the army encourages aggressive pushes with your HI link, specially because we have to kill both order generators and specialists on the opposing side to achieve major victories in most missions, as a lot of factions just simply have superior button pushing skills, so its more of a matter of hampering their button pushing and then trying to push what buttons you can.(in between all the murdering)

    Im not saying the army is unplayable by any means, like I said before I think we traded some raw strength for some flexibility in odd places. Places which I personally wouldnt have picked, but it isnt up to me. So i'll see what happens and how the meta adapts, and maybe i keep hammering on with MO or I go back to JSA(which has been oddly consistent )
     
  8. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    1. Varuna arguably has the most versatile fireteams in the game bar none. Many other sectorials can field heavy infantry links and the recent proliferation or HI in LI links has reshaped the durability of links. IA is one of the most unique and straightforwardly dangerous sectorials in the game with plenty of flexibility and durability and it covers its weaknesses quite well, perhaps arguably too well. MO has shifted to being one of the weaker HI sectorials in some respects because of the fireteam shuffle. Order economy in MO is completely at odds with its identity of HI centricity or should be considered skornergistic because of the interactions of impetuous, fury and fireteams. Morats and IA significantly gai in terms of HI power when factoring in their extra orders. Making Joan a less attractive piece yet more necessary when her fireteam was niche to begin with is highly questionable. Making her fireteam an easy break is simply stupid for stupid's sake.

    2. The LT problem is compounded by who it can be and their cost and their battlefield role. It's not as simple as a good vs bad player. It's highly situational and can force bad moves from good opponents with terrain and lists factoring into the decision making heavily. TO MSR doesn't solve all problems as the mods dont stack well if you're being overwatched by a link team with some decent weaponry. SSL2 stacked with +3 BS brings these FtF rolls a lot closer than is comfortable frequently.

    3. MO has had a reliance on its link team to essentially be the gameplan. TOFOOS being one of the best support units for it. Crusaders are possibly one of the worst. The versatility and durability of the OS makes him invaluable where as the single purpose nature of the crusader makes him often redundant. Making matters worse is the order efficiency of the Crusader is pretty terrible comparatively and you need those orders elsewhere accomplishing the mission, also see point 1 about orders.

    The point isnt that MO is unplayable but rather that it has gained structural weaknesses and its compensation is toys. These weaknesses are more fundamental in terms of list building and gameplay where as the toys are certainly fun but dont solve the weaknesses. We just witnessed CB drop a HI sectorial that can make half of its list virtually immune to hacking and hit back really damn hard, a well protected LT who can benefit his army while in marker state, several high powered solo pieces that you can run along with an HI link and protection of LimIns list yet effectively 10+ orders. I cant help but feel that MO was as kneecapped to make sure that IA looked better.
     
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Wait a sec, you can still take Hosp+Mag link ? Wow, that turns 3rd offensive changes all around ^^
     
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  10. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    No, you cant
     
  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Rather poor excuse against speculetive E/M, smoke, assasins (Djabel/Speculo/Sphinx) or just IA proper link team ....
    So back to square one with MO "how the hell should MO exit own DZ".

    Well "at least" KotHS can have FD2 now ... so we are back to Montesa case.
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    >> you
    >> irony
    Wait you leave your ~30+ investment in back field ? It's really hard to do links now in MO without LT sitting inside them, and even if your link advances you are leaving your Lt all alone for some AD trooper (or high mobility one) to ruin his day.
    Weren't you just saying few posts above that people should not leave easy to access ARO pieces otherwise their opponents will have a field day of using minimal amount of orders to remove enemy pieces ?
    So you are just saying "play against opponent who plays poorly" ?
     
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  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    3 MSV 2 and 1 MSV1 : Spitfire SOS, BF and Konstantinos for MSV2 and Dart with MSV1. Plus the AVA of those is better than IA ones.
    I think that with the KotHS, we can go to the throat if we keep him as reserve piece. I think that we really should learn how to make work solo rambo like him, Albedo BF or our TAGs before sending the HI link. We have tools that are really powerful, we just need to learn how to make it work.

    I don't know if you know Tabletop Simulator but it is the closest thing I have found to the game IRL to play around the world. There are pros and cons, of course, but I don't have many problems to play with it. Just to have to learn again how to guesstimate the 8".

    @eciu what he just says is that you can adapt to what your opponent does. And I think Joan V2 makes a good solo rambo T1 that can just come accross the table without giving a TO ARO piece any chance to pop out.
     
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  14. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    The tittle of my autobiography
     
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  15. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I know about table top sim, in just a stickler for 3d models (instead of paper cut outside I've seen people using) and it feels kinda clunky overall
     
  16. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    ??

    There is a OS sniper in the MO starter box:
    [​IMG]

    I'd been planning on doing an arm-swap to get a combirifle with the TO skirt.
     
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  17. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    One of the things I have been thinking about, is imagine CB turned around tomorrow and said they were wrong, and gave us back the old hospitaler magister link. Would we realistically run anything else ever again? Fine, we might shake if up by putting a couple of Santiago's in there, but we can do that already. I think we would end up in the same boat, and keep moaning that there weren't any realistic options.

    The old team was good, but we kept asking for variety. Now we have options and variety, and the price was that team, I can honestly live with that.

    I also agree with aydan above about ramboing the koths coc. Yeah, he is never going to be a kriza or a Swiss guard, but my god he has saved my bacon so far.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Vijel

    Vijel Member

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    Yeah i know but i simply don't like the models in the starter box that much. I like the look of the newer OS models more and the Corc Man seems close enough for a conversion. :)
     
  19. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    The problem isnt exactly the link is missing so much as a problem of the whole. The link was a staple because it allowed the sectorial to work. The problems still persist, it's just the knights compete less with the Hospitaliers and now they compete with each other. Would restoring the link help? Yeah. Every other faction updated in TO got a link booster where as MO regressed. They could have even forced it to be min 2 or 3 Hospitaliers and it would be good still. This is a bugbear of design, when you nerf one thing in order to make others good, you tend to just obliterate whatever you're trying to fix. Warmachine took an axe to medium infantry in the name of making Manowars good and basically killed them off in every faction. PanO was given specific structural limitations that the dev team should be keeping in mind. MO is currently the weakest iteration of Pano currently because it still cant solve its problems properly. It's why people kept asking for eclipse smoke on Teutons because it fixed an issue in MO and would let the army lists be less restrictive since we didnt have to shoot out of every DZ. Now our lists still have the same issues but possibly exaggerated over a few different options. TAG, haris or full blown core. Or if you like playing dangerously as some people in here apparently do, linked missiles. MSR OS has a select range of fantastic targets, but gets hairy when looking at link teams and is often best off avoiding visor troops or other vismod troops due to low burst. The best addition to help out might just be the KotS with midfield spitfire or lgl but eats 1/6th+ of the list and that's needed space for our mainline pieces who average around 30 points minimum. Needless to say, we have to be extremely decisive in what pulls its weight in our lists.
     
    #499 Judge Dredd, Jan 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
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  20. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    I know. But I never bought that box and I don't plan to do it because I don't like the miniatures in it. I considered buying it just to have extra OS miniature, but I hate those old combi rifles.