1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,648
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    So much this.

    Your list wont even make it "easier" for you beyond the hwo well it fits to your playstyle and your own experience with the list and what its tools can do.

    Hence why this

    Is also absolutely accurate.
     
    barakiel likes this.
  2. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,648
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    because "its not your list" means that a good list wont win you the game as you seem to think.

    However it is possible to write lists that do not work well or are structured well internally. Taking 6 orders at 300 points for example would be a "Bad" list.

    Taking a unit that has a unique role however does not make a list bad.
     
  3. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,169
    Likes Received:
    1,007
    Sorry ignore this. I'll stay out of the argument.
     
  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,648
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    Ummm? No you cant.....and no you couldnt even if the tuetons were cheaper....

    I mean, maybe you are confused and think making the tuetons cheaper would mean you could then trade them out for the more expensive Santiagos....But thats kinda nonsensical and wrong isnt it.
    Or are you really trying to argue the Santiago is overcosted?
    Furthermore the original list already had a santiago spitfire....or do you mean the Sepulchre breaker?

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    3.5 SWC | 304 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,648
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    Oh lord.

    Look ok im gonna try take this slowly.

    So firstly. 6 Man links. The role here is pretty obvious, you start the game with the ML in the link, for the additional B and To hit mods available to it. Later in the game once it has either died or the opponents ability to fight it has been degraded to where it doesnt need the Link bonuses to be effective anymore you are still able to form the link around the other 5 members and either aggressively push with them or retain all the link team benefits,

    6 Man links are actually very strong and a typical design feature in the meta these days with all the mixed linakble options.

    Your Fugazi argument.
    I actually also already pointed this out, but if you could "add" a fugazi to that list because you had access to cheaper tuetons, the list would look something akin to this.
    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 52)
    MULEBOT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 36)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    3.5 SWC | 308 Points
    Open in Infinity Army


    Now this is a terrible idea, you are throwing away the benefit of a Limited insertion list for a single order in a second group. If you account for the negative 2 orders you now suffer in your first turn, the net result across a game means that the fugazi contributes a single order across the entire game. IE your list has access to 31 orders a game as opposed to 30. additionally the first turn capabilities of the list are inherently degraded due to access to less orders turn 1.

    Again pretty commonly understood in the meta.

    And finally, the role of tuetons.
    The major strength of the tuetons is the High BS, High BTS Bezerkers. The abillity to trade a wound for a practically dedicated kill is invaluable tool in this game. Magisters may be fantastic CC specialists but they have to win a face to face roll in every combat. Berzzerkers making tuetons Normal rolls in CC means that you can garrauntee that the unit you are swinging for will take that hit, and there are plenty of instances in a game where losing that tueton or taking a single wound with that tueton will be the correct choice when it garrauntees you the kill on the opponents trooper.

    Its a core design phillosophy of a number of units, Domaru Tuetons and Galwegians and its very powerful when used correctly
     
    RogueJello likes this.
  6. lord farfhocel

    lord farfhocel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    77
    @Ayadan I dont know if berserk arm3 33ish pts HI is the best way to deal with a cheap warband... a lot of these guys have dtw (so aro clip more models to berserk) or Da CCW so they can waste you with ccof 17+...
    I thought of teutons as slice and dice specialists... but they need tools to move.. so stealth, impetuous, eclipse and anti material cc to be able to deal with more... also look at domaru (dont copy though) somehow better and with cheaper linkable profiles.... more than not they lack a clear defined role...

    Also crus bros seem lackluster... just very like generic ad but... could we get something mad like a flying magister.. point and click fire and forget strike piece? More optimized to the theme of MO

    Point at jungle terrain... until ITS starts featuring terrain in their scenarios terrain units will be overlooked... many units are cool and thematic but this is very meeta because it depends on your house rules/ to to utilize that. I for one would love a zero g/ jungle / mountain scenario... forcing a different list the same way as exclusion zones do.
     
    Lesh' and Skoll like this.
  7. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    371
    Let's not turn Teutons into Bolts.
     
  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    1,227
    How many times do your opponent take DA CCW on a WB? In France, it is only when there is a scenario with antimaterial available or the cheapest loadout has one. And how many do you face at the same time? Except CHA and maybe Tohaa, I never face more than three so I can avoid CR templates of at least two of them.
    About move, I don't think stealth is so needed. Most of the time, I don't have a use of it on my Hospitallers or KotHS because I have to shoot first. And for shooting things down, they are pretty effective. A thing that Domarus aren't that good at. So, what is the use of Eclipse grenade? Blocking LoF to go out of DZ. But we don't NEED this with all those HMGs on solid platforms we have now. I would use it if they had some but I don't really need them. We are PanO, it's long time we know how to go out of DZ without smokes.
    And as I said, Teuton is good to punish errors. His targets aren't the best troops of your opponent. He is here for wiping out troops like unlinked MB or ORCs at best. If you want WB like HIs, take Magisters or Montesa. Slice and Dice isn't their game. They are here to take out cheerleaders effectively without asking you to commit something as valuable as Santiagos or Hospitallers .

    Edit : and there is difficult terrain at least for rescue.
     
    #448 Ayadan, Jan 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  9. TaHu

    TaHu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    225
    Likes Received:
    285
    Ok, 6 man fireteams - when it is extra fusilier it is one thing but, when it is a knight I am not sure. Also more then half of your army is situated in one place, which makes it easier for opponent to surround and use templates on you.

    Sure, adding fugazi and ruining LI is a bad idea, but I was talking in general. Regarding your list I said the same as Eciu - Santiago KHD, KotHS Spit. If you ditch the teutons completely it is possible to make 10 and 3 order groups which is not that bad.

    Now to strength of teutons, high BS? All knights have such BS. High bts? It is the same bts as hospitalliers have. Santiago have 3 bts and a -3 deflector, which is a double edged sword, better defence vs hacking, worse vs EM. So the only thing left is berserk. Please answer this, how frequently have you used it and could this be achieved with other desicions? If you use it enough and are nothing else could do it then good. I personally and local / batrep MO players I`ve seen rarely use CC and never use teutons, strange isn`t it?

    Domaru are cheaper, have no competitors within sectorial and bring addition skills such as kinematika and MA3(Stealth). JSA and MO have different aproach to different tasks and while one is mostly shooting (knights) the other is mostly about CC(JSA)
     
  10. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    371
    I don't really think comparing the Teutons to the other Knights will get us anywhere. Yes, most of the time we will be better getting a Santiago when we want a knight with spitfire or a magister when we want a CC knight, and if we want a Haris the Hospitaliers just look better.

    But Teutons offer options. Not very optimal in most cases, but they are different enough to consider them. If you compare them 1 to 1 to other knights they don't look too good, but you can form a Haris with two Magisters and that's unique. It is the cheapest knight Haris you can get and they can fill a role of hunting weaker troops and holding a position since they are pretty resistent. Not so impressive maybe, but it can be the kind of strategy you need or want to play for a specific scenario, and they give it to you.

    You also have the NCO. I prefer the Santiago spitfire, but if anytime I feel like I really want that "extra order" and the list I'm building has some spare swc and could use the 4 points I am saving with the Teuton... Well, hey, the Teuton is there for me to use it.

    The EXP weapon can be really good if you want to use it to destroy objectives in scenarios where you need it. Now it's true we have other really good options like the Santiago spitfire (again) with D-charges and plenty of other DA weapons that could be just enough. But the Santiago comes with a higher point cost and SWC and maybe it's just not what you need, or you don't want to risk the guy who has to destroy the objectives. So you spend your SWC in your main attack troops that will be risked in firefights and bring the Teuton along.

    That's what I can come up with right now, and probably others will find better ways of using them. So I'm not really saying that Teutons are any better or even as good as the other knights, but they do bring options, specially through their linkability. They were pretty marginal and almost useless before, but now we have more uses for them.
     
    Ayadan likes this.
  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,913
    Likes Received:
    4,566
    If Teutons were cheaper you could easily swap one of them for Santiago KHD, and depending how much cheaper they were mayby upgrade Magisters to DA CCW. What are you talking about ?

    Santiagos seems to be ok with all "new stuff" they got (usable DA and opportunistic yet good D-Charges).

    And regarding Breaker and Spitfire, yes I ment KotHS.
     
  12. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,019
    Likes Received:
    1,250
    But how can we not compare then when list building is all about opportunity cost. Any teutonic you take is points not spent on those knights that are their direct competition.
     
  13. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,648
    Likes Received:
    5,400
    Originally you said 2...
    But i mean sure though thatd be worth looking at. I do however like having redundancy on my trade pieces. Often it lets them leapfrog wounds and cause more damage before you lose one
     
  14. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Likes Received:
    371
    Maybe I didn't explain well. But after the first sentence I tried to explain what I mean with "not comparing them". In essence is not trying to justify using them by comparing their profiles 1 to 1 with others, but more looking at what options or strategies they can open for you.

    The discussion that I'm interested in is exactly the seek of those options/strategies. Since it's not as obvious as other profiles and would be good to know what you guys think.

    Otherwise, yes, I think Teutons are not very good in general compared to the rest of our Knights, and I don't think the conversation about how good or bad they are is getting us any farther. But them being "suboptimal" doesn't mean we can't find them useful.
     
    Ayadan and oldGregg like this.
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,523
    Likes Received:
    4,580
    Remote buffs and Firewalls, but also as an option to Hack Transport Aircraft (which I am finding important in Season X).

    I hear you on both changes 'though and would consider them as alternatives on the list to try.

    Yeah, the TO MSR is an answer to questions nothing else in MO can deal with reliably.

    Playing with groups is something I'd likely do too, but the TO MSR is in group 2 in order to give that group a "punch" option.
     
  16. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    737
    Between the two, which one is worse?
     
    Titus likes this.
  17. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    505
    Likes Received:
    848
    Teutons, as bolts have new-ish to new sculpts at least. And exist in a sectorial that's actually good, even if the good lists don't contain bolts -but they get some cred via association :D
     
    oldGregg likes this.
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,444
    This has never been correct or remotely true.
    We've been over this time and time again and this was always supposed to mean a good list is no replacement for skill.

    Nontheless does a list have tremendous impact.
    Just because I can wipe the floor with some random round 1 opponent that has a objectively maxed out list, but can't deploy for shit and makes mistakes, doesn't mean I can expect to win 4+ games in a 30+ player tournament if I don't bring my A game AND the best list possible.

    It would be much appreciated to stop flat out lying about this matter over and over.
    It' not the list and it's not you, it's always BOTH and none of them work properly without the other - assuming you're facing an actual challenge.

    A frigging huge red font to give your oppinion some weight which it does not have is also kinda bad taste.
    But that is in turn just my oppinion so whatever on that part.
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,022
    Likes Received:
    14,345
    You're telling the guy who came up with the phrase, what the phrase means...
     
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    4,444
    I'm going to ask very carefully to consider how long gaming has been around.
    And how long Infinity is a thing.
    There have been lists since way before this was badly adapted here and I'm just gonna go ahead and assume Infinity has no realistic claim to own the origins of "it's not your list it's you".

    Whelp, even if it was his own original idea, it would still be wrong at it's core or at best wildy inaccurate and misleading.
     
    #460 Teslarod, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
    Elessar and theradrussian like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation