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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. KwarkyMats

    KwarkyMats Well-Known Member

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    The HMG Seraph is incredibly fun to use. You can get some interesting angles on your opponent.
    I ran a list yesterday with an OS link including a FK ML + OS HRL for ARO duty and the aforementioned Seraph. The FK did some incredible work on my opponent's turn taking out pieces, always laying down templates on high numbers.
    In my active turns I used the Seraph to take out key pieces. It makes for a nice hammer and anvil strategy.
     
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  2. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    two points of contention here, for one I believe the thread is talking about the usefulness of the sepulcher in MO and your example represents not only vanilla but soldiers of fortune as well, so a pretty hard skew away from standard MO. Secondly the list your opponent assumed he was facing is arguably stronger than the one you actually took, why yes it would have been possible to just mine his troops in, you could have still captured civilians as he hid his ARO pieces and in addition to that brute forced your way through most of his list.


    That's the problem with the sepulcher, there is little he can pretend to be that is more expensive than himself , and if you are pretending to be something cheaper for the shell game, you might indeed be better off taking the two extra TOFOOS instead of pretending you have them.
     
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  3. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    As I said, it is an example of what you can do and the most effective I had in my sleeve. You can still do this in MO as I said just before by pretending you're deploying TOFOOS in order to make your opponent wasting orders to find and deal with a non existing threat or be unconfortable to move forward too much as a Crusader could pop in the back and kill everything unopposed.
    Your opinion of the list really played being weaker than the one pretended is just a point of view. Croc Man can deal as effectively against backline troopers as a Swiss Guard but can do it sooner, capture objectives, I have mines to make to my opponent the exit of his DZ harder and the KoTHS is still a pretty competent fighter that can engage in CC or at range effectively. And as my opponent gave me the whole table to move just to save his guys, I could choose my fights and targets and move freely in my first turn. And this is not something to take off.

    What I want to illustrate is that KotHS can do much more to you than just winning FtF. As deployment is an important part of a game, messing the deployment of your opponent is something I find really strong.
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Ok. Code is in pipeline, herbal tee is on table lets take this bull by the horns!

    Secure the lose objects, fasten the seatbelts this is going to be a wild long run!

    1. Butcher's bills (what did we lost)
      Lets start with what MO actually lost. Going through limitations first might allows us to better utilise things which we got.
      • FUSILIERS: So Fusiliers are no more in MO. For many it was expected and appriciated change as they deemed Fusilier "unfit" in MO themed lists, due to them being "just some complete secular mooks from PanO military complex". While this is very true in the fluff nature, there are quite big gameplay repercussions for MO.

        As it was said MO just lost their cheapest reliable order monkey, resulting that on average MO lists will have a 1 order less (3x 10 pts vs 3x 13 pts). While you usually didn't make CORE of Fusiliers due to their low AVA (3), and fusilier didn't have particularly special/unique equipment they fulfilled other obligatory role in MO.

        They were one of 2 reliable Lt options for MO (Joan being 2nd ;P). For 38 pts you could unlock proper list with presence of Lt, hacking device and "shell LT" with 2nd body which looked "just like LT" to enemy.

        Now you have to pay 47 pts to have 3 orders, hacking device and you still didn't fulfilled the requirement for Lt! Thats quite a big deal while creating lists for MO.

      • Hospitaller+Mag link: Well known and like Hospitaller+Mag link is no more. Instead of uplifting other choices to make the compete with this link, CB decided to nuke this link all together. Quite strange and sudden decision, considering the fact that new Magister Knighs were painted officially in Hospitallers colors and this update breaks their links ^^ (mean people would say that everyone who was supposed to buy new Magisters already did that ^^). Funny enough "old" (and dynamic) Magisters have now a better color scheme (Teutonic) more fitting to current gameplay.
      • Bipandra: <shrugs> bad Dire Foe is bad.
      • Santiago BSG: Strange and questionable decision, little of reason why this particular profile was deleted, similar thing goes for Santiago Combi. Especially considering both models are available and though they are really old, a lot of people still love them. Seeing how Magisters were resculped I would rather not want Santiagos to go the same way. Santiagos cannot now form their own CORE but that is a bit irrelevant with their new Wildcart. Their AVA was also reduced by 1 (4->3), it probably won't mean much (though you cannot form 2 DUO teams now using only Santiagos).
      • Father Knight few profiles: So apparently FK lost their BSG DUO profile, which is a net gain because they get a native DUO on all their profiles (for free).
      • Montesa: Old Montesa is gone, most unique profile being LGL (with Mechnized Deployment). We got though a complete new Montesa bikers, and other units picked up a bit of old Montesa equipment/gameplay. It seems also that Mechanized Deployment might be on chopping axe as only 2 more units in game have it (Peacemakers and some Haqq).
      • Joan's Doom Link: Surprise to see it here ? The Old link is dead, as now you always need 4 Hospitallers (or Wildcarts) to form it. Yes it does mean if one of your guys bites the dust and link is broken you cannot reform it with less than 5 members (if Joan want to be in it).

    2. What we got (reinforcments summary)

      • Tikbalang: So a "old/new" Tikbalang is in MO. New HMG option is always welcome, especially on one of the best TAGs in game. It seems that MO's MO (Modus Operandi) will be "mobility TAGs". What is disappointing is fact that MO version of Tikbalang lost mines (for DA and AP HMG), while also getting increase in price "because reasons". MO is not ASA, and cannot support Tikbalang with cheap super efficient orders, excellent&cheap defensive link, and surprisingly efficient Nagas. MO apparently was pushed hard towards "LI lists" and Tikbalang need a lot of orders to fully take advantage of his Climbing+. Order efficiency might be also a reason why he got AP HMG (to be more efficient at killing hard armor targets). DA CCW is a nice bonus for those few mission objectives with Scenery Rules.
      • Seraph:
        • Old Seraph: Whoooho FINALLY Auxbot learned how to Super-Jump like his master! Finally Seraph can use his unique skill and actually allow Auxbot to move. This is not a game changer, that's a dropped ball CB decided to finally fix (after how long 1.5 yeas ?)
        • HMG Seraph: Yet another HMG option. It gots quite a nice discount and an additional Nanopulser (for total 2). Again its nice to have new HMG in MO (sectorial of Spitfires), and SuperJump might allow it a to get some nice long range fire lanes. Its moderate price might mean that it might be vialable to run 2 Seraphs in single list (probably with Joan). Also remember it's "only" BS15 HMG without visual mods, so that it might still struggle sometimes against hard linked ARO's. His main goal of catching units which thought are safe prone of roofs is unchanged, it can do it a bit more efficient (and safe from own DZ) now.
      • New Montesa: Well never I thought I will see bikes in PanO (and especially in MO). Montesa got really hard shifted (well death of their Grand Master also helped). While old Montesa will be missed, the new fast units are very interesting. Its higly mobile 2W unit (which can always ditch bike when it starts to be problematic), good candidate for DATATRACKER. His paramedic profile is actually excellent to perform "drive by medkit". In situations when you don't use a 2nd short skill you should be freely shooting you own unconcious guys with Medkits (if you don't have doctor). It's a good way of "opportunity healing" or worst case denying your opponent easy way of scoring his Classifieds. (question if MedKit can be used during impetues phase still stand due to "Medkits (...) acs as a Non-Leathal BS Weapon")
      • Father Knight: All FK can now form native DUO (hurrey, no more "BSG+Spitifre or Specialist") you can now have a gun of your choice + specialist. He also can now join Order Sergeants links, without limitation so you can actually put even 3 FK into single OS link (and have no native OS there). Unfortunetaly it's still quite an expensive "high stats" unit, suffering from "this game is all about skills not stats" syndrome. Due to a fact which we will discuss next many of FK changes are wasted and single biggest winner is actually FK ML who can now act as a hard to shift ARO piece enjoing the support of OS full CORE (though he will still be less dangerous and more expensive than top ARO performer - Kamau MSV2 MSR). Oh and FK Lieutenant profile got FO (but it still carry damn Combi).
      • New Santiagos: Santiagos got quite extensive rework of their linkability. First their Spitfire profile got Specialist Operative (both regular and Lietenant). 2nd option is to take brand new KHD+Tinbot. This profile is actually quite lovely. On one hand MO finally got KHD (after everyone else even Tohaa got them) and Tinbot is a qood example of PanO's approach to fight (read: throw more tech at it). This makes rather "plain" Santiago KHD (avarage WIP13) into a unit which has chances of surving against other superior and predatory KHD's (Bit, Mary, half of OSS). It's quite understandable that unfortunately KHD profile loses E/M grenades for all the quipment it got (sad but completly fine). Santiagos also got quite important change of Wildcart making it possible to stick them into every link team! Suddenly all your HI guys can get -6 to being hacked (Tinbot+Firewall) ! This is also nice especially for Joan's link (bit harder to isolate/Exile them). Unfortunetaly their Wildcart makes some other options already more or less obsolete. It's hard to justify Father Knight Spitfire in OS link, when the Santiago Spitfire costs less points, less SWC, comes with a Specialist, E/M grenades and 360 visor and D-Charges (on top of DA). It's bad internal competition all again ;/ Why CB, why!?

        Oh and they got an actual discount with Spitfire profile being -1 pts while picking up DA CCW, Specialist and D-Charges.
      • New Hospitallers: Surprisingly they got cheaper (!?). Every profile got -2 pts. Why it was done is a bit beyond me, it seems the ORCs are really in sad place now (when you compare them to Hospitallers). On top of that every profile now has DA CCW (much better than AP) which will be usefull and allow them some scoring in speficic scenarios. 2nd biggest thing they had received is option to from Haris, on a nice platform of Doctor profile (Combi though). This allows actually having quite a nice option of HMG+Doctor+<something>, as with no access to Magister linking it's hard to justify their full link (oh and they got AVA5 so that means they can form their own CORE without characters). They also received an option to link a single Order Sergeant. Apparently full Hosptiallers links are still damn expensive (without Magisters), and need desperatly some cheap fillers.
      • Teutons: Did you mind I had not written "new" Teutons? Yes that's the core of their problem. Apparently CB really hate those guys ;/ They are only knights who had not received a point discount, no new equipment. Not even new (better) CCW, and they are left with AP and single option for a Combi+EXP CCW ;/ Yes they still have no Stealth, nor their Berserk make any much sense in during the game (I cannot remember from top of my head a good targets to use the Berserk+CCW on). They do indeed received "something". They got a Haris option (on Combi profile with a new Specialist profile). This profile is still much less appealing than a much better (for exact same price ) Hosptailler Haris. They also received an option for a Spitfire NCO. Problem of this profile is that it costs as much as Hospitaller HMG, making a Haris of HospHMG+Doctor+whatever much more appealing than TeutonSpecialist+Spitfire+whatever. As a solo piece, Spitfire NCO must compete with Santiago Spitfire which does provide rather broad asset of equipment and options (also specialist) for 4 pts more.
        Situation is not much better even though Tetuons got access to free linking with Magister Knights (who can count now as Teutons for fireteams). Hilariously enough it's usually better (while bit more expensive) to link Santiagos knights with Magisters (due to Wildcart of former). Not only you get better equipment (E/M, Tinbots, KHD) but also cheaper SWC weapons, DTWs, Nanopulser etc. Again internal competition strikes again and it seems that in most cases it's better to form "Teuton CORE" without any Teuton Knights ;/ (form Magisters+Santiagos as "Teuton CORE" to allow access of single Order Sergeant into link).
        Why CB, why !?
        tbh my only hope is that after reading 3rd Offensive book, Tetuons will get either squatted or go "Montesa way" of completly reworking their profiles. As they stand now there's little reason to field them (though at least they can link now....)
        Oh and Teuton Lt still has to pay 1 SWC, just for lulz Why CB, why !?
      • de Fersen: Got cheaper by 2 pts (as Hospitallers), cannot link with Order Sergeants (it was a bit ambigious at moment of 3rd offenisve release). His main weaknesses&strength are still same, though Wildcart Santiagos Tinbot might help him (but Redrum WIP13 Tinbot is better than Trinity WIP14). While Fersen+Santiago Tinbot might actually be quite good hacker, it's still quite expensive option (thought possible). While being great all rounder, he will still suffer from proliferation of strong enemy KHD options, though release of IA might make him a bit more appealing against such matchups.
      • Joan: She got option to jump into every DUO in MO. Quite possibly most usefull of such DUOs is Santiago KHD (for Tinbot and specialist). Her Doom Link though become even more fragile due no option to reform her link if there are less than 5 people (she needs exactly 4 Hospitallers to form it). This last change is really stupid and annyoing (and I bet many players will forget it). It makes it that ending turn with Link Leader marker on any of non-Joan link members is putting even bigger "kill me" banner than before. I wonder if it was made to force players to include EVO hacker in Joan Doom lists to run "TEAM PRO" (and probably forbid at same time inclusion of CoC due to pts limits).
      • New KotHS: Oh boy, this guy changed a lot (while not changing much). His previous 2 profiles got Forward Deployment Lv2 and Combi got upgraded with LGL which was dropped by Montesa. So MO still somewhat retains option to have "infiltrating" BS14 LGL (though it loses 4") but on the other hand is a bit more "survivable" due to Holoprojector. KotHS also traded a bit of PH and ARM for better CC and BTS. Getting a BS14 with surprise shot Spitfire up to 20" is actually quite good and might be a really good option as "last drop" unit if going first (even better in Vanilla PanO), quite a Rambo potential.
        The other 2 new profiles have both CoC skill (whoooohoo CoC in MO). Problem is they are both 50+ pts CoC ;/ It's a hard commitment for MO (who usually run out of points very fast). This is only make MO "LT problem" even more visible. That said he is quite a decent shooters (especially Breaker Combi 52 pts profile) and a specialist (with mighty WIP14 for PanO) making it an option as secondary hitter/specialist. He's not type of CoC who sitts somewhere on top of the roof hoping noone will ever bother coming for him. This "aggressive" characteristic can be seen through whole 3rd Offensive update in MO.
        In general FD2 Spitfire get an option to be quite vialable 1st turn Rambo, while CoC got Breaker Combi meaking it at least hard hitting againist most targets (at least you can try to grief few TAK units untill you eat this T2 MMR shots).
        I also still think that Holo2 on such a unit is overcosted :(
      • Black Friar: So MR BF got option to link with OS. It's a good thing, it always makes me wonder why "anti-surprise" unit can easily got surprise attacked by camo's or through white noise ;P It makes it quite nice and hard hitting unit (while linked), and gives option for some defence to OS links (drop bears). Also discovering Impersonators on 19s is good. While linked he actually might have some use to kill MSV ARO units, using +1B and +3BS. He also makes throwing Konstantinos in OS links questionable due to a fact that in many cases MR is better gun than a horrid combination of Combi+Assault Pistol Konstantinos has (though they are bit different in temrs Konstantinos can exploit non-MSV opponents, and BF counters MSV units).
        Big loser in this update is MSR Black Friar. He cannot link with OS. Why CB, why !? It's really silly. He is not Kamau MSV2, and even IA has linkable HAIDAO (funny enough it's Wildcart), with same BS13 and even 2nd wound.
        It really is strange. I think that MSR BF should get something just to make him anywhat desire-able, giving him SS2 could be actually usefull and further differ him from Nisse in Vanilla PanO (also making him probably much more expensive as SS2 is damn expensive skill, yet again showing that Mimetism is usually superior skill).
      • Machinist: Jokes on you, MO is only PanO sectorial which hadn't got special variation of Machinist ;P All you can enjoy is special name for him xD
      • Order Sergeants: They hadn't receive any new equipment but now can link with other units. It's quite possible to make "Order Sergeant CORE" without any actual Order Sergeants (Santiagos+Father Knights + Black Friar). Big losers are "Specialist Order Sergeants", who still cannot link. It's understandable for TO guys or guys with Auxbot, but why (overcosted) MSV2 Spitfire and an actual OS Hacker cannot link is beyond me. Why CB, why !? (you see a theme?:P)
        Single OS can also jump into Teuton or Hospitaller core, to make it less expensive, more vulnerable, and give some cheap long range weapon (HRL).
      • Magisters Knights: Count now as a Tetuon Knights for fireteam purposes. Funny enough that makes their own CORE completly obsolete xD CB failed at their rules. (also they can now link without any senior knights)
      • Dart: One of the best skirmishers in game joined MO. So if someone thought CB are being "purist" by removing Fusiliers he can be no longer deluge about it as while Dart is very strong unit, she doesn't exactly fit MO (fluff wise).
        While good she is also quite order thirsty, which might be a big problem in a "new MO" which will probably mostly run LI lists.


    3. Big losers (units not touched)
      • Crusaders: well at least lower their overcosted ARM and make cheaper, please CB ?
      • Black Friar MSR: anything for this "Nisse's worse brother" ?
      • Konstantinos: still heavily overpriced for what he does :( (can a combination of Combi+Assault Pistol just die ?)

    4. New weaknesses (yes)

      So MO players do have to learn to build complete new lists. Simple fact of removing Fusiliers means that the old approach "take 3, maybe a hacker too and start building rest of list" cornerstone is gone. Gone is also the old Hospitaller+Mag link which was really quite powerful (but I wouldn't called it OP), making it that other factions HI links are arguably better than a new MO (for example Rriot Girls or Hollow Men, IA probably short to follow).

      I think that it's time to address the elephant in the room, the new situation of MO's Lt. This is again an offset of Fusilier removal made me realise that since my time in MO I've ever used only 2 Lt options: said Fusiliers and Joan. There was little of sense of running different LT. All MO LT are HI now, no exceptions. Cheapest LT option for MO goes for 34 pts 1 SWC (sic!) Teuton or 35 pts 0 SWC Hospitaller. This with a combination of removal of Fusiliers means MO had been "hard shifted" to LI lists (as you now have something like 4 orders less). Additionally MO used to run all (or at least most) of their HI in a link rushing towards the midfield and enemy. What it means right now that your Lt will probably end up in most dangerous place - enemy half of table. Now if you want to keep your LT "semi safe" is to invest and "waste" ~35 pts and kept him in DZ (but once link departures there won't be many other people to cover him) or put him in one of the advancing links and really live on blade's edge (it's not exactly hard to kill particular HI guy, even in 5 man link).
      Now new KotHS CoC comes to the picture. Once you have invested at least 35 pts you can now invest at least other 52 pts to have a CoC on field. This means your Santiago Lt Spitfire won't result in obvious 1st turn LoL. But that means you just invested 95 pts in your LT..... Yes you have 2 strong units but both of which are really easy to read in terms of "who is LT now". I understand that someone thought that "now as MO got few nice things it needs limitations" but the MO LT situation was resolved rather "heavy handed".
      Either you shove your HI LT somewhere deep in DZ (and "waste points"), or you go with aggressive one and pay an additional tax of 52 pts of CoC (who can achieve quite a lot on his own, but might result in 3rd turn LoL).
      Some might point that MO is now similar to Onyx in the topic of limited Lt options but mind that Onyx can take Lt for as cheap as 16 pts, and they have an option (though expensive) for a hefty price. All MO LTs are hackable, making a games against Nomads prone to pitcher+Isolation griefing.
      (also playing against Speculo just became much more difficult)
      Identitity of MO LT will be that easy it could be as well Open Information.

      2nd big topic is a power of fireteams in MO. Joans Doom Link can now take a KotHS CoC which can lessen a bit biggest problem of those lists (fact that killing/isolating Joan would usually throw those lists into heavy dissaray), while also sporting a bit better hacking defence (Santiago KHD+Tinbot).
      Hosptialler+Mag are unfortunetaly dead, and neither the Santiago nor Teutons fireteams "in vacuum" can even match their previous performance. You lack HMG to leave your DZ on your own, and either Specialists does not provide such great robustness and resiliance to a link like Hospitaller Doctor.
      Important to mention though is you can make Teuton/Santiago/Magister core and support it with HMG+Doctor+HRL Haris. While not being as "efficient" in removing long range ARO's, HMG Haris might be enough to allow CORE link to advance and wreck havoc. Main downside of this list is fact that's yet another LI list.

      While there was a lot changed in MO in this update, the sectorial already suffers from some internal struggle, main points being:
      Spitifre Santiago is almost always better than FK Spitfire
      Santiago KHD is almost always better than FK specialist
      Santiago usually do better than any Teuton profile
      Black Friar might invalidate linkable Konstantinos

    5. New strengths(maybe), new opportunietes (yes)


      Ok, so what good had 3rd Offensive brought to MO ?

      A lot of things are now "technical".

      Technically you can run now double TAG list (though you will get murdered and put into the LoL quite fast).

      Having a Haris option (in 2 flavors) is actually good, your OS link might be supported by short range Haris (Teuton+Magisters for example) or Hospitaller one.

      You can use a lonely Order Sergeants (thought not against anyone with "Specialist" in name Why CB, why !?) to strengthen your links once casualties are inflicted (use OS to increase number of link members).

      Santiago KHD+Tinbot is really a nice thing (especially with Wildcart).

      Option to link Black Friar with OS is nice. I really start to value BF strongly, it just that previously it was a bit hard to fit him into list (now he can get "13 pts discount" acting as a body for OS link).

      There are now reasons to field KotHS (if not it's obligatory for the few of the lists).

      While not revolutionary I cannot stress enough that Seraph's Auxbot do not act as a anchor for his bigger buddy (this is only strengthen by a fact I really like how I've painted my Seraph).

      Father Knight ML is a big winner, as previously there was absolutely no reason to take him (even over Teuton, and this is saying). Now as he can link with OS, he posses an ARO which cannot be "just ignored" and might be really frustrating to shift (as straightforward ARO killers like Specnaz might have some troubles to actually inflict wound on FK). Rest of FK loses hard while competing with Santiagos (or struggle at best).

      You can now play with 3 Joans on table and actually made a list which somewhat makes sense :P

      MO now has at least one gun which feel "technologicly superior" and makes TAK at least a bit uncomfortable (Breaker Combi). In general every MO HI gaining a non-SWC weapon which is not Combi is a glorious thing.


    6. Closing words

      "-Difficulty?

      -Hell Mode, please."


      In summary I think I would agree with @Teslarod that MO had downgraded rather heavily in "powerplay". LI lists are just still not good enough against "broad lists" (even OSS can do semi reliably ~16 order lists). Lack of Hosp+Mag link will be missed. I also don't think that MO got more efficient at executing plans (and people) so that LI lists can be considered "strong". MO will drop in popularity for most of tournaments (that I'm sure). LI in MO will probably be also much weaker than IA, due to a fact that MO won't have such number of orders IA can have. This problem might be somewhat resolved with clever use of Impetues phase, but this again raises a skill floor of this sectorial, and might not always be possible to use (if your opponent is clever).

      This is not helped by the (too heavily executed) new limitation on the topic of Lts in MO.

      What MO got is a reasons (even if not many) to actually field different units. While I personally am on opinion that Hosp+Mag link shouldn't be deleted and just other units should get alternative uses I really like what was done for Black Friar, Santiago and FK (even if only for ML).

      Teutons remain a mystery and I hope that they will receive (due to fluff) a hard rework (similar to Montesa), as atm. they are still hard sell to see tables (tbh I really think they should act more as "super premium WB" with Hyperdynamics Lv2-3, and EXP CCW). Or for simplicity sake just give them those damn Eclipse Grenades, poor Guarda de Assalto won't use much of them anymore!

      Fact that Specialist OS cannot link is also something which should get removed as there is little reason for that to exist. Same goes for limitation of which Black Friar can link ;/

      Personally I would wish that de Fersen could link with OS (due to a virtue of being Father Officer) but again that's my wish :P

      It's good CB that you seen the problem and tried to differentiate MO list building. Main problem I see that it somewhat ends "half-baked" and on the same time increasing the sectorial difficulty quite heavily (you remember this article https://www.infinitythegame.com/blog/articles/item/125-hell-mode ?). Yes, imho MO is going back to it's roots ;P

      CB decided to give MO direct theme and gameplay:
      - Super aggresive use of Lt.
      - Hard shift to LI lists
      - You have to have HI in your list from now on
      - Use more Joan in your lists

      Here are some lists which I think might be interesting and good starting points for some discussion (general archetypes):
      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
      TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
      ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31)
      JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
      TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

      6 SWC | 297 Points

      Open in Infinity Army

      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]10
      SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
      [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
      SERAPH Spitfire, Nanopulser + AUXBOT_3 / EXP CCW. (2 | 82)
      [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
      [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
      BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
      MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
      MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

      5.5 SWC | 300 Points

      Open in Infinity Army

      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
      KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
      TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
      ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
      SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)

      6 SWC | 298 Points

      Open in Infinity Army




      In general the I can thank those videos for keeping my language in check:

     
    #324 eciu, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  5. vicen85

    vicen85 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree.

    Can you copy all the message and create a new thread called "MO Complete Analisis"?
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Fixed that for you, though I suspect I am really showing my age here...



    I admit, in comparison to the other HI sectorial (Invincible Army), I am really missing LT2, NCO (OK, there is a single model with NCO in the sectorial, the Teuton Spitfire, but why would you take it?), and particularly Tactical Awareness. A Joan Pain Train, even with the typical WarCor and Techbee for two additional orders, is just going to suffer against an IA list rocking 13+ orders in a single combat group.
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I'm really unsure if we should have yet another thread about it.

    What's other people opinion on this ?
     
    vicen85 likes this.
  8. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    I would just rewrite and edit the old one, with a disclaimer saying the first however many pages of comments are about an older iteration of mo.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
     
    Zsimbi likes this.
  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh the sticky thread opening posts will be updated I just need more time and right now I'm really busy with life ;) Getting this long post done was already quite a problem for me.
     
    mrstream likes this.
  10. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    Oh god, I didn't mean do it immediately! I figured it was one of those things that would get done when it is done. But I don't think we need another thread, end of the day, we can keep the conversation going here just fine.

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
     
  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    one day some people *hint hint could even take the ideas and criticism written in it.
     
    TaHu likes this.
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Why does it still stand?

    "Using MediKit on a remote target is not an Attack,"

    What logic are people using to perform a non-attack in Impeteous Phase?
     
  13. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    There are a surprising number of skills with the attack characteristics, so that is probably where the confusion arises. (Getting flash pulsed really prevents an awful lot)
     
  14. BarbeChenue

    BarbeChenue Well-Known Member

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    Eciu's post is simply amazing, so anything written after will likely sound like demented babble. *thanks man* ;)

    Here's a list I've been fiddling with. Thanks to Eciu, I learned that you could fit an Order Sergeant inside a "Teuton Core" made of no Teutons, this freed the points I need to make this "TAG+Haris+Core" list:

    Efficient MO TAG+Haris+Core
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army



    I wish I could fit a Machinist and Palbot(s) in there, but at least I have a Doctor and FO (plus, in case of emergency, the Crabbot is a Specialist... yeah).

    (Is it *THAT* obvious I miss cheap Lt. & Magisters+Hospitaliers?)
     
    eciu likes this.
  15. Sepheriel

    Sepheriel PanO Enthusiast

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    You could also drop a couple of DA swords and upgrade the OS in the Core link to a Paramedic.

    But to be honest I'm quite worried about the lack of hacking defence and engineers in a HI+TAG list.
     
    Elessar and Section9 like this.
  16. Seraphin

    Seraphin Well-Known Member

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    I've dropped the Haris in favour of support:

    [​IMG] MO5 (TAG LI)
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    [​IMG] MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    [​IMG] KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    [​IMG] SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
    [​IMG] [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    [​IMG] SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    Elessar and Section9 like this.
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The engineer would be my first priority, actually, but I have lots of EM and glue in my meta, less hacking.



    I think that will be a much better list than the previous one. It's broadly similar to my Samurai 7 list, but with a better-protected Core team. Use the Seraph to distract from the link team.
     
    BarbeChenue likes this.
  18. Elessar

    Elessar 80stalgic console cowboy

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    Lately I was pondering too on new Seraph list iterations, and I ended with these two: one with teutonized Magisters' link plus bike and another with not so humble Order Sergeants' link:


    Seraph Magisters
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    KNIGHT OF MONTESA Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Seraph OS
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
    [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
    ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    PS: unlinkability of Spec.Sergeant is quite annoying to say the least, it's like an outright joke played by CB on MO since almost every sectorial out there can link hackers or MSV L2 -_-
     
    #338 Elessar, Dec 24, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2018
  19. BarbeChenue

    BarbeChenue Well-Known Member

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    Actual play experience with the TAG+Core+Haris list (no hacking defense or Engineers), against Steel Phalanx:

    Santiago SO Lt is very good, it felt like a strong attack piece with a great toolbox... Until it took a Wound, and then you fear losing him, which feels llike a waste. Reminds me of playing Joan back in the days (LoL so many times). I truly appreciate the Santiago SO Lt, but I wish I had a full fledged Doctor, and not merely a Paramedic, in the link.

    HMG+Doctor felt weaker, but the matchup was pretty awful: ODD on everything save for an Agema sniper (who died to a Panzerfaust shot, even from inside Smoke) and Ajax (who also died to a Panzerfaust+Light shotgun). Not having BS+3 in the Haris really showed vs. ODD (-6, when behind cover, at good range, means B4@TN 8 vs. B2@16 vs Smoke dodge, not so great). As soon as Smoke was up, entire fire lanes were cut, I was hungry for more Template weapons that game...

    Seraph HMG was amazing, with two Nanopulsers. I wish I had the Auxbot, of course, because of Fire and the Spitfire rangebands being more appropriate, but attacking Myrmidons through Smoke @BTS+0 is satisfying.

    (There were no hackers in the opposing list, and no E/M shenanigans, so it's not a perfect demonstration.)
     
  20. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    I'm starting to worry that Santiago Spitfire is just a common Lt option even without CoC.
     
    Lesh' and eciu like this.
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