She is. There's "a lot of fluff" why she is here (even thought the reason is quite short and simple). She's a great unit, but in MO she will be really starved for orders to actually fuel her rampage :( This is "most spammy" MO list possible which is legal and somewhat makes sense. Still looks like poor's man ASA. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33) SPEC. SERGEANT Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) GROUP 2 4 1 DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) SPEC. SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher + AUXBOT_1 / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 19) AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army And this is "more of MO feel" list: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 3 KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43) TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34) SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27) 5.5 SWC | 297 Points Open in Infinity Army But using this 10/11 orders will require EXTREMALY order efficiency and discipline. You don't have a hard enough punch to throw freely orders, and not have enough of them to exploit expensive plans/detours or miss objective rolls. Funny enough this list will probably fold against TAK, quite possibly also againt TJC or OSS (no hacking defence).
I´m probably being a bit dramatic about it. But somehow this update feels like that. It is more probable that I will end up going back after the Xmas holidays, and if the new MO are not what I need I plan to try Varuna anyway, or I could get more serious with trying Aleph or even Yu Jing. I could always go back to playing generic Pano or Neoterra of coure, but that feels boring nowadays. The thing is, part of me wants to take a rest from Infinity and play some other games with hexes and warriors pushing each others while using cards... And no, it is not Aristeia!, it is something with more orcs and dwarfs in it.
@Teslarod: for now most critique adressed at the update can be summarized as "MO can't be played like before anymore". And I honestly couldn't care less about that, since it can be played in multiple different ways now. What we've straight up lost: Fusiliers: It hurts a bit if someone really relied on three 10 pts orders, but otherwise it's a non-issue. Our cheapest orders and cheapest hacker got a whole 3 pts more expensive. That's 9 pts total. Sure, we're basically an order down, but this doesn't mean squat, given our increased order efficiency. The only thing that affects us a lot here is the loss of cheap, hiding Lt. But this can be countered by our new options. Hospitaller/Magister old style Pain Train: It was certainly a powerful link, to the point that it eclipsed most other possibilities. Now it can't be constructed in the same way, but it's still viable - on the same level as other options. Previously the cheapest pain train costed 140 pts (HMG, Combi Doc, 3x Magister), while current cheapest version comes at 149 pts (HMG, Combi Doc, 2x BS, Combi OS). The only thing it really lost are Panzerfausts and the option to include Joan, but instead it can include OS heavy weapons and a KHD. This moves the link a bit sideways, but doesn't actually remove it from the game, especially given that Hospitallers just got cheaper. Mechanized Montesa: I started Infnity as ASA player, so this was always my favorite knight. But there were just a few loadouts that saw regular use - Spitfire, LGL, LRL, and maybe Paramedic, and the first two were simply picked up by the Sepulchre, who is actually a superior CQB platform. So we've lost little of consequence here. Shotgun Santiago: Which is a pretty questionable decision, especially on a boarding trooper primed for CQB. But it doesn't hurt our gameplay in any significant way. A few Father-Knight loadouts: Which nobody really used much anyway. Bipandra: Read the above note again. Santiago Core: Ditto. Everyone used Hospitallers. And we can actually still make "Santiago" Core, using any other Core as a foundation. What could be changed, either at all or differently, but for some reason wasn't: Specialist Sergeants link restrictions: Given the current changes to all armies it simply doesn't make sense to exclude hacker and MSV2 Spitfire from links anymore. The latter loadout's SWC cost is also unreasonable. Teutons: Both new loadouts are certainly useful, but the unit as a whole still doesn't have a real raison d'etre. Black Friar sniper: Seriosly, it's occasionally useful, but boring as hell. Would it really be too OP to allow him to link? Or simply remake him with Albedo, BMVL1, and a different weapon, like Boarding Shotgun? Machinist: With all other sectorials getting their own pimped up versions it'd certainly make sense to make one for the humble Father-Engineer. Religious, higher CC/MA1 or some fancy weapon (Flammenspeer for example), ability to link with Hospitallers? Father-Knights: I agree, that they'd be the most logical choice for a Wildcard. I'm noth going to complain at their actual changes, though. They're a solid option now. What we've gained: Reinforced OS links: Honestly, guys. I think you all underestimate how useful Father-Knights will be here. I've ran numbers on F-K ML, and with fireteam backing it up that thing can deal with TR bots. It also basically allows us to run F-Ks as another Core team of knights. one that will be extremely hard to hack, especially with Santiago KHD in the link. Black Friars MR is another unit that benefits a lot from this, as he can deal with ARO MSV troops much more reliably now. Biker troop: Right now the most durable biker in the game, with Stealth, visual mod, specialist option, and generally primed for CQB. Don't know about you, I'll field him a lot. Haris options: Only the Hospitaller makes much sense for now, but it's a useful option and might see play. KHD: This is one of the biggest changes. And it's a Wildcard, making all our HI links significantly safer from hackers. Chain of Command: Another big one. We've lost the Fusilier Lt, but now we're able to run our HI Lt's without risking LoL, making them considerably more useful. I saw a lot of comments disputing the usefulness of such expensive CoC option. I consider them short-sighted. CoC isn't only useful on a 20-30 pts trooper sitting behind the lines. It's perfectly useful when it's platform is a powerful HI. I see CoC Sepulchre as a late game backup, able to take over command and engage what enemy forces are left without risking anything, because on Turn 3 we're likely not care about LoL, as it's the last turn anyway. And it's a specialist, too. Teuton and Magister Core: We didn't have them for a while, now they're back. Teutons are a decent replacements for old Hospitaller link, with NCO, KHD, and Magister/OS mix as fillers. Magisters are a cheap option for a defensive HI link (tied with F-K ML/OS, but that's not a full HI link), as well as a base for functional Santiago Core (Teutons are better, though, given the option to include a single OS as well as Magisters). NCO: Only one, but it can still help with order efficiency. Either in a link, or as a secondary assault piece, so we can run Lt. on one flank, NCO on the other, and decide where that order will be best spent any given turn. Fixed Seraph: Auxbot isn't its ball on chain anymore. Also, new HMG option without Auxbot. Coordinated Orders with Joan, anyone? Tikbalang: One of the best PanO TAGs, and in a pimped up version, too. Dart: Even without MechTesa our midfield game just got stronger. So yeah. I do have some arguments to be happy for revised MO. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on them, but all we have are our subjective opinions. If someone says that MO's being weaker now is a fact, then he's mistaken. Bottom line is that the way the sectorial can be played was changed - a lot. Instead of complaining that the old ways can't be followed anymore and how nice it was during the last Ice Age, I'd say we need to analyze what ways we can follow now. edit: I see two main questions: will that link be primarily used to attack, or to defend? And do we want to build it on the budget, or with all bells and whistles? This is an example of a cheap defensive/long range fire support fireteam: FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) 1.5 SWC | 101 Points It actually has pretty decent chances against most defensive setups (it'll struggle against linked Kamau sniper, but who won't?), and is one of the options that can open the way for Spitfire-armed assault troops. You might want to keep a Doc or his Palbot nearby, you can also include OS Paramedic and or heavy weapon for increased usefulness. HRL and MSR are the most useful choices, but a backup OS Spitfire is a possibility. This, on the other hand, is a Pain Train and a half: FATHER-KNIGHT Spitfire / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 50) FATHER-KNIGHT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 50) FATHER-KNIGHT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 45) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) 2.5 SWC | 198 Points You pay an arm and leg for it, but this unit will get through everything in its way like lettuce through an old and short crone. You can switch Spitfire for the Santiago version, make someone here a Lieutenant, make it cheaper by getting another OS, but this particular version is the most durable one. It shows a middle finger to hackers, Jammers, mines, and any other soft counters you might meet along the way.
Oh,boy so much stuff I disagree with. Well as unfortunetaly I wont get games this weekend I will be at least be able to get some summary of the changes done to a MO. And no, Teuton core (with Mags) is nowhwre close to what Hosp+Mag provided.
We can simply agree to disagree. What, are we on the internet or something? :P Yeah, it lacks HMG and a Doc. It's still a perfectly viable option. Hence my comment that people shouldn't be welded to their old playstyle, and could explore new options for a change ;)
I really like this: Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 5 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) 3.5 SWC | 162 Points Open in Infinity Army It's not much more than the old Hospitaller and Magister Fireteam, but the HI members are a lot less vulnerable if the link gets broken as everyone keeps cover. You've got a high BS HMG for pushing out of the DZ, two specialists, really great hacking resistance, a BS23 shotgun! a DTW, and still has a long range template (admittedly one that only has one wound). This one gives a full Core and Haris, but gives a lot of choices about where the Santiago and Order Sergeants go. Each team has a B5 weapon and at least one specialist. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 8 2 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) ORDER SERGEANT Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23) 4.5 SWC | 226 Points Open in Infinity Army
My problem building lists is that after assembling amazing fireteams like that, I really struggling including some ARO troops, a OS forward observer TO or other good specialist, and the lieutenant. Basically, the fireteams look amazing. But rounding up the list feels difficult.
Interestingly, not a single list I have built in the new mo has a tofo in it... This concerns me, but our new specialists are surprisingly good. The coc sepulchre has done some really good work for me. Stuff like unmasking, or antenna field would require different lists, but I am actually finding it difficult to even want to include the spec sergeants. Maybe it is just new shiny stuff syndrome, but it is making me re-evaluate the way I am making mo lists. Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Remember the saying: "ARO Troopers are like sex toys, anything can be one of you try hard enough" The first Fireteam has an OS HRL for exactly that purpose, you could include another combi OS to refill the link if he buys the farm. Once the team is out of the DZ you've got multiple ARO pieces each with 6th sense and 2W, it's why I like the Multi Doctor with it's DA ammo. You can also break the team to drop members into Suppression Fire with a co-ordinated order and reform the team next turn. Something that Magisters can't do. Then you've got your usual messenger remotes and Warcor as flash pulse speedbumps. Totes Remotes for watching objectives, TOOSMSR (which is only 1 point more than a Hexa and gets Infiltration!).
Military Orders──────────────────────────────────────────────────10 1 KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56) KNIGHT OF MONTESA Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 299 PointsOpen in Infinity Army I'm excited to give this sort of list a try
That's the kind of list I want to run as Mercedarian Order, Hospitalier Combat Rescue. Just with De Fersen replacing that HMG. Military Orders ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 9 1 DE FERSEN Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, Templar CCW (AP + Shock). (2 | 56) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35) KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31) KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38) ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15) KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56) KNIGHT OF MONTESA Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Chain-colt / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) 5.5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army But De Fersen is so frakking expensive! Had to completely drop the Pathfinder bot.
The benefits of the Magister/Hospitaller core were 1) the powerful AROs of the Magisters and 2) the efficiency they added to the Hospitaller HMG and Doctor due to their low cost. Now because you can have an OS instead you can actually do 2 more efficiently and with the Teuton Core you can do 1 more efficiently as well, plus you can make them more flexible with the Santiagos. But the teams do have other advantages, the Hospitallers are tougher as a full team, and have better mid range AROs. The Teutons have NCO for order efficiency and really powerful CC options. I think both are good, they split the previous core into two cores with do the two roles but with other strengths and advantages, and similar if not superior points efficiency. Edit: and if you want a very efficient, multi capable link with a really powerful long range ARO and great high burst active turn shooting you can still do that with the OS core including a FK Missile Launcher and a Santiago Spitfire.
Remember. No Smoke In MO. If you want yo get out your DZ you need shoot. The HMG is the only reasonable weapon for the fist Turn. Long life to the HK HMG.
And that's fair, but you can take that if you want to! Nobody is stopping you choosing that option, and it's a very good and flexible one. There are other options to getting out your DZ mind, but if you like that one it is still there, and even more flexible than before with your Haris option for it too.
Then my friend played yesterday Father Knight FO Lt, FK spitfire, Santiago KHD, OS rocket launcher and black friar in a Core. Supported by Haris of Hospitalier HMG, doctor and OS. Plus machinist and OS+auxbot to give some support and fill up to 10 orders. Steamrolled my other friend's Aleph OSS and had lots of fun with the FK spitfire. Maybe that's the way?
