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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    I thought adding mimetism to PanO units was lazy design and we wanted more interesting things like forward deployment or CoC HI?
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well in itself is nice.

    But CoC for ~50 pts when your cheapest LT is 34pts 1 SWC and you are almost never a decoy for him is terribad ;/
     
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  3. hansthehuman

    hansthehuman Order of Saint John

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    To be honest, I hope no one ever considers the Teutonic Knight as a viable lieutenant option.
    And considering the Hospitaller LT costs 35pts without the SWC tax, I'd regard him as the cheaper choice.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    True. One more sting to poor Teutons ;P
     
  5. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    you are correct, but i never expect pano to get actually good things like FA2 , or Tactical Sense. So i'd take mimetism on the sepulcher so he can decently firefight with the bunch of mid field HI and skirmishers that are sitting at bs 13 + camo or mimetism .

    God knows im more than comfortable fighting a full link with a shikami's assault pistol, not so much with a sepulcher.
     
  6. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    Boys we’ve gone full circle!
     
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  7. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    You forgot not wrecking Joan's super friend link
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I didn't forgot, I just don't really consider it wrecked ;)
     
  9. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    I would not have been able to win my most recent tourney with this change. Gabriel DeFailure dies too much.
     
  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Its yiur own fault for bringing overcosted hospitaller ;P
     
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  11. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    Tbf it was 400 points. I had some luxuries. Just not the luxury of surviving a heavy flamethrower. One flashpulse crit later, a couple really pissed off Hospitaliers and Joan had something to say about that to the O-Yori.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    So, Knights v Samurai went to the Knights this time, huh?
     
  13. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    As long as your name wasnt DeFerson. At least he isolated the Tanko Missile launcher before failing to claim the objective 2 or 3 times then failing to hack the O-Yori and then failing three armor saves to a flame thrower.

    The crit flashpulse on a fugazi's only order (it was alone at this point in group two) made up for that pretty quick. It's hard to do much against two knights and Joan when you can't see. But after dealing with that, I tagged the nearby objective with the doc and reformed my link as a 4 man.

    And this is what disappoints me so much is I HAD to break the link in AROs because Kitsune was creeping up on Joan (who also gutted the sneaky tart). Sometimes you have to break the link in order to save the link and you can still lose a guy. The very nature of this link mean someone in it is going to die and it could even be active turn death of the team lead. I love running this link in MO and I just finished painting Joan with the Hospitaliers very close behind. This change sucks. I'm just going to drop Joan from the list entirely for a hospitalier Lt. And honestly, it's actually opened up some room with all the discounts for some interesting support pieces to run along side them making Joan look even worse to begin with. I probably won't touch Joan in MO unless I want to Rambo her v2.
     
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  14. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Alright, so let's summarize what problems we have after the update:
    - No more cheap order generation (Max you can get is 8 x 3 cheap bots, after taking a rather expensive hacker guy)
    - No more cheap/hidden Lt, most of the remaining Lt options are carrying heavy weaponry or cost a lot of points (or just suck, like Teuton Lt)
    - No more cheap/efficient hacker Fusilier
    - Regular Order Sergeants still suck, since they pay 3 points each for +2 CC and +1 WIP (while the latter has some use on their Paramedics, it's 1 profile out of 5) + they do not have a linkable hacker or forward observer. As a result, the best they can provide to a knight link is plain Combi or Paramedic profiles, for they are the cheapest ones.
    - Father-Doctor and Father-Engineer are still regular dudes without linkability, religiousness or whatever. They still do not really fit in MO thematically, just like old Fusiliers
    - <insert HI name here> are being outclassed by Santiagos. Father Knight Spitfire in OS link? Santiago's clearly better and cheaper as well, both points and SWC wise. Teuton Spitfire in Magister Link? Santiago has MA, E/M grenades and is a specialist on top of that - just for 4-6 points more (and still cheaper SWC-wise).
    - Teutons lack a clear combat role, besides being downgraded Hospitallers that can use Magisters as a part of their link. Now it seems, though, that the best option of Teuton Fireteam is not to include any Teutons in it. Some adequate specialists (like Engineer or Forward Observer) and/or proper tools for getting into CC (with Stealth, of course) would help a lot.

    There are now 2 Haris options, and Teuton Haris honestly does not hold a candle next to Hospitaller Haris. It'd cost you the same 39 + 36 + 13 = 88 points / 2.5 SWC, but Hospitallers have MA, HMG compared to spitfire and a better Doctor specialist (while for Teutons you'd probably like to take Sergeant instead of Combi one for +2 points). Sure, Teuton NCO has an ability to use extra order from our Lt, but in MO it's barely needed since our Lt does not hide on the roof somewhere anymore.

    All this and a high cost for all of our units cripples any non-Limited Insertion MO list a lot. Still, need quite some time to test all this out, but so far it does not look very good :(
     
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  15. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    As you've said, OS are 3 pts more expensive than Fusiliers. What we've lost amounts to 9 pts max. likewise, basic hacker got only 3 pts more expensive, and it was often better to take EVO, anyway. Loss of cheap Lt. is a problem for some lists, but it's more than countered by introduction of CoC, which finally allows us to play with really aggressive Lieutenants. F-K/OS mixed teams are brutal. And sometimes the best thing to include in Hospitaller or Teuton link isn't a Combi or Paramedic, but sniper or HRL, to provide cheap and effective ARO.

    Oh, and Paramedic doesn't use WIP, but target's PH-3.

    F-K provides better durability - especially for the hacker - and Assault is useful at times, as is Missile Launcher. Teuton NCO also has its uses. Otherwise botched Teuton update is the only real problem. Teutons would best be fixed by making them real CQB monsters, and limiting their ranged capability.

    To each his own. In my opinion MO are much stronger after the update, even though some problems persist.
     
  16. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    What exactly are the arguments to base that oppinion on?

    The new Link options are straight up worse than the Hospitaler and Magister Link. Simply cutting the option instead of altering or hitting it with a nerfbat is probably the most questionable decision in the entirety of MO.
    Removal of Santiago Profiles and addition of a KHD there doesn't make sense. Not quite sure what makes less sense, them having the KHD or them not having a BSG. Fatherknights and Magisters should be the ones joining other Links by various means, not Santiagos.
    More expensive Orders didn't get offset by anything like properly useable NCO or Tactical Sense.
    Lt choices after the update are horrid. Not sure if there is another Sectorial that feels fucked as bad as MO in that regard. Being completely screwed out of any shell games is worse than before.
    New additions like Dart, Montesa etc perform better in other Sectorials that actually want backup options in that price range to fuel them with their 2nd Order group. MO can't really properly afford fielding them.
    Several troops that were garbage before had no meaningful changes or options added (see the 0 Teuton Teuton Link, DeFe, FK).
    Considering the price difference in between a FK+OS Link, and Magisters + OS + Santiagos there is no reason to ever put a Knight into an OS Core Link over simply running a better Core Link instead.

    One addition I'd rate positive is access to a HMG Seraph and the Tik. Simply because MO is desperate to include at least one capable HMG out of necessity.
    The Hospitaler Haris is one of the rare occasions where a Haris is actually not bad, unfortunately you do not have a high quality Core Link to add to this unless you want to be stuck with a LI list. Considering how much people hate 11 points Zhanshi (with access to proper SWC weapons) it shouldn't be hard to imagine what people dislike about OS (hint: the point cost relative to their upgrade cost over Regulars, Fusiliers, Keisotsu, CG, and every other decent LI Link in the game).

    I'm genuinely curious what the detailed reasons for your oppinion might be. Unless they're about how great the 10 Order lists you can build now are (spoiler: they're not better than before).
     
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  17. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    I am curious, what sort of teams are you thinking? I've tried putting a few together and not really had much luck tbh. I have this feeling there is something quite good there, but I can't just work it out!
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    What I see MO has gained is the possibility to have a sustained power through the game. IA is like anything from Yu-Jing : explosive but not really durable if the nut is too hard to crack. Yes, 16 orders on HI are a thing, but those HIs don't like when they receive hits instead of inflicting ones. MO is able to pick up a FT core of 5 members from survivors of different links. It imposes some choices in list building but it is a real thing that I see. Second, you can still play with one OS FT and go YOLO with solo pieces. We have a lot of good ones now and while you don't have access to the power of a Core link, you gain in threat. FT Core of knights is so obvious that your opponent will choose a list that can deal with one pain train. That doesn't mean this list will handle as easily multiple threats coming from multiple ways and securing multiple access.

    Maybe you can't play like this, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Remember that meta is important too. Things that are hard to get work on your tables might be golden on others (see Interplanetario tables that favoured Spitfire over HMG most of the time this summer).
     
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  19. Titus

    Titus Varuna Beach Commando

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    All this new MO situation is really putting me down already even before trying it out.

    When they said they were changing MO you could only hope for the best. I mean, why would they make it worse? I didn't expect them to be more powerful, but definitely more fun, yes. And then the release brought slight excitement mixed with disappointment.

    I still have to try it as I said. But kinda makes me want to stop playing for a while.
     
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  20. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    It shouldnt be enough to get you to stop. It's just a confusing mishmash of design choices that seem cooler but also that seem to have been poorly thought out. Theres a lot of new build options but they sacrificed the old two builds to do it. Now we have to keep an eye on how IA plays out with a massive chunk of orders in an opposing HI sectorial. It's hard to tell what is going to happen right now, and there are disappointing aspects of the change, but you should press on and try it out some before giving it up entirely.
     
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