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MO update

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Zsimbi, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    LoL.

    So when exactly CB finally drop this MSV2 Order Sergeant from their range ?

    Also: it seems that linkable HD is too much power to MO.

    Srsly this update seems to be more and more of a mess.
     
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  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Well, it's a mix of many well thought-out changes (ASA links, most of knight changes, VIRD in general) with things that were either overlooked or are perfectly fine in the eyes of designers, who don't understand what players are complaining about (OS, Teutons, Singh, Rao).
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well poor MSV2 Spitfire OS (who I took as an example) suffer from all sides. His SWC is a manual/personal "screw you in particular" (1.5 for 1W MSV2 Spitfire with ARM1 when Deva pays 1 SWC for same), costs more than a equivalent Deva (1 pts more for MSV2+Spitfire combination) and in the end of a day cannot even link.


    Srsly some of those updates seems like "well MO had some strange limitaions and rules, lets change them by adding yet another strange limitations and rules".

    (you can put Koni MSV2 into link or BF MSV2 into link, but no weapon with range longer than 16" because "no")
     
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  4. McGufalo

    McGufalo Member

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    Both the army and the book doesnt have any restrictions about the spec sergeants. And imho the book > wiki > app
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Given that the note was added to the wiki after I checked directly Gutier aka with the rules writer, good luck with that. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    Army hasn't been updated, because it's the weekend...
     
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  6. McGufalo

    McGufalo Member

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    Why the f*** i spend money in books then! xD
     
  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    To watch pretty pictures? :P
     
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  8. Elessar

    Elessar 80stalgic console cowboy

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    All in all even if I am quite satisfied with the changes - though I am relatively new to the cloister as I started MO just after the 300pts box - I do too find some choices or better to say, choices not to change what is asked for and change what is not, a bit puzzling. So I decided to sum up some of my musings.

    Crusade Link strikes me as a flat out nerf that we don't need as they were not so OP in my book. SPEC OS 'unlinkability' is a legit design choice yet they could at least have revised here and there some minor issues. I suppose Konstantinos stayed the way it was due to some internal balance issue among Dire Foes. Teutons were a big, big let down, we will find a way to play them but lacking a clear asset/role and more importantly lacking stealth they will suffer heavy competition from Hospitallers; an oddity that Teutons link will be played mostly without them. LT scarcity is too a legit design choice I do not have any quarrel with; perfectly fit even if CoC KotHS is a steep price to pay sometimes (yet quite in line with other similar skill wielding profile elsewhere). Father Engineer and Doc are a missed opportunity to characterize them à la Acontencimento, a pity. Dart is simply out of place and De Fersen will be a wonderful proxy for Santiago KHD.

    Everything else is amazing and enticing and I look up for trying everything as soon as possible. Santiagos are now the basic bread and butter in MO and I like it, Montesa got motorized (KotHS retained LGL). Seraph looks finally a proper TAG. Generally 'linkability' is now a myriad of options. And heathen Fusiliers were sent back home (BGwise it was long due).

    So to me MO get better and shinier yet keeping more or less its character fluffwise - to me a huge pro. Paying the price with Joan and friends taking the bat, if not likable is acceptable. Yet I still hope in some new profile now and then along the coming year 'cos I am a spoiled child.

    And CB what about resculpting abhorrent PanO support pack?

    As a side note, Seraph entry in army is botched as I cannot select it and it still lacks crabbot: or is it a change too?
     
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  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    The crusader link changes was unnecessary because it was not that strong an option in the first place. Like most HI links, its overcost. You can now take a Santiago + Magisiter link and do nearly as well as that Crusader link but for a cheaper cost.

    @Vaulsc is correct that the optimal link is often 1 HI + 4 cheap LI. Keeps your costs down and gives you a link buffed 2 wound offensive or defensive unit to serve as a strong foundation for a list.

    For MO, a Father Knight w/ Missile Launcher + 1 OS w/ Sniper or RL + 3 OS is going to likely be one of the best options for most missions. Another strong option is the Hospitiller w/ HMG, Doctor Haris, and 1 OS for a cheap Haris to provide long range firepower.

    Another strong option is just taking Joan 2.0 by herself and a KotHS CoC. You can do a lot with this simple core.
     
    #189 Death, Dec 3, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2018
  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Yea, like PanO Dire Foes suck ^^
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    To read the fluff, of course!

    (and before Uprising, that was written without Comic Sans!)
     
  12. Vijel

    Vijel Member

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    Hi there follow MO players, i read a lot on these forums but haven’t posted anything yet.
    With the MO update and some of the valid criticisms here I thought of some solutions for myself.
    One thing beforehand though: I am relatively new to Infinity and by no means a good player.
    All I came up with are ideas containing suggestions and criticism made here in the forums.
    I suspect most of my “solutions” are over the top, bad or silly but I wanted to post them anyway to spark some discussion on how to maybe fix the things the last update didn’t address or did wrong.
    So take this with a grain of salt.

    Order Sergeants
    SPEC. SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device) becomes ORDER SERGEANT Hacker (Hacking Device)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (MSV L2) removed
    Order Sergeants can no longer join a Hospitallers or Teuton Knights Fireteam.
    Maybe buff Konstantinos.

    There was no reason to not allow OS Hacker to join a Fireteam.
    The MSV L2 got removed because with Black Friar and Konstantinos we have two MSV L2 Options for a Fireteam now. Also I wanted to trim the amount of Spitfires im MO. xD
    Maybe Konstantinos needs a small buff in order to make him a bit more attractive compared to Black Friar.
    With Magisters in Hospitallers and Teuton Fireteams I think we can let go of the OS in HI Fireteam.

    Crusader Brethren
    CC 20
    Special Skills: Assault
    AP CCW for all profiles
    CRUSADER – HMG removed

    Some complained Crusaders where to generic and boring and needed some fluff. After a little training alongside Father Knights now they are acceptable melee fighters which fits their fluff and makes them more MO. On the other hand it probably inflates their point costs and makes them worse overall? So maybe let them stay generic?


    Black Friars
    BLACK FRIAR – MULTI Sniper gains Fatality L2 or Antipersonal Mines

    Black Friar MSR needed some bump to make him more interesting and attractive compared to his Albedo counterpart. Giving him Fatality would make him more deadly whereas Antipersonal Mines would give him more support and survivability.

    Hospitallers
    Revert point cost reduction.
    Special Fireteam: Up to 2 Magister Knights can join a Knights Hospitallers or Teuton Knights Fireteam. Except Crusade Fireteams.
    Order Sergeants can no longer join a Hospitallers or Teuton Knights Fireteam.

    I suspect they changed the old Hospitallers/Magister because it was too point efficient and got you a linked BS 14 HMG for too cheap. With the reverted point costs and only two Magister Knights the Fireteam is slightly more points than a current Hospitallers link with an OS.

    Joan of Arc
    Special Fireteam: Core. Crusade Fireteam. Joan of Arc (any version) + up to 4 Knights Hospitallers.

    Old Link of Doom was not too strong and not too bad. With old Hospitallers point costs and fixed Crusade Fireteam we got back an acceptable option for a core Fireteam.

    Magister
    Special Fireteam: Up to 2 Magister Knights can join a Knights Hospitallers or a Teuton Knights Fireteam. Except Crusade Fireteams.
    Magister Knights don’t count as Teuton Knights for Fireteam composition anymore.

    I liked the idea of Magister Knights joining the other orders fluffwise. With only 2 Magister able to join Hospitallers or Teuton Fireteams they don’t make the HI Fireteams too cheap but allow for some options.

    Teutonic Knights
    Special Skills: Martial Arts L1 or Non-Hackable
    Panzerfaust removed from all profiles.
    New profiles replace all of the old profiles:
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT – Combi Rifle – Pistol, AP CCW, Nimbus Plus Grenades
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT – Combi Rifle – Pistol, EXP CCW
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Lieutenant – Combi Rilfe – Pistol, DA CCW
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT – Submachine Gun – Pistol, DA CCW
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT (Fireteam: Haris, Specialist Operative) – Combi Rifle – Pistol, DA CCW
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) – Submachine Gun – Pistol, DA CCW
    Order Sergeants can no longer join a Hospitallers or Teuton Knights Fireteam.

    Finaly the Teutonic Knights. First major criticism was vulnerability against hacking without stealth. I tought about Martial Arts L1 or Non-Hackable to address this issue. Martial Arts L1 could be too much in combination with Berserk. Non-Hackable sounds wrong fluffwise. Sure they got no cubes but their power armor is still vulnerable to hacking right? Not especially satisfied with either of this solutions.
    Next criticism is their lack of flavor and a niche inside MO. I reinforced their close combat nature by borrowing some inspiration from Varuna ORC Character Patsy. Submachine Gun as main weapon of choice and strip them of all longer range options like Panzerfaust (which was the role of Magisters anyway) and Spitfire (which we have enough off already) also DA CCW for almost all profiles. The EXP CCW profile stays obviously.
    Last but not least they needed something to leave the DZ and get into CC. Instead of the heavily demanded Eclipse Grenades I again borrowed from Patsy and added a Nimbus Plus profile.
    Obviously point costs have to be adjusted.

    Santiago Knights
    New profile without Wildcard trooper:
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO (Specialist Operative) – Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades, D-Charges – Pistol, DA CCW

    Removing the Boarding Shotgun on a troop specialized in boarding actions is not very fluffy. Therefore Santiago Knights get back their Boarding Shotgun but without Wildcard trooper. With this change you can run a Boarding Shotgun Santiago in a Duo or as a solo piece without giving every fireteam access to Boarding Shotguns.


    And that’s it. My ideas on how to improve the recent MO update. Feel free to trash and discuss all of the above. :D
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Because OSS or other factions could do that cheaper ^^
    While idea are not bad (and they are little bit of extension of what Teslarod wrote), they do really make more sense.
     
  14. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Since it's a "fix MO" thread now, I have rather silly ideas of my own:

    • Revert Montesa to what they were before, give new profiles to Teutons. Since Teutons are famously sacrificial to the point of not having Cubes and they used to be all about speed in N2, making them the bikers would be great, without sacrificing a popular ASA profile. Also give these new Teutons to Varuna obviously, since they were supposed to be getting Paradiso troops.
    • Similarly remove the 360 visor from Santiagos and make these Father-Knights. There's only two Father-Knight models available and only one of them has a ballistic weapon visible, so there would be no harm in making Combi and Spitfire all they have.
    • Change Santiagos about as much as Hospitallers: price reductions, Haris specialist (maybe even KHD), Crusade team variant. I know people whine about Crusade team being overcosted, but:
    • Use Tesla's idea of 2 Magisters available to any HI Fireteam (Crusade excluded). Or keep that one Order Sergeant squire running about, as it is now.
    • And obviously, allow Hacker OS to link, as well as Sniper BF. MSV2 OS could be cut for all I care, but I don't think he'd break the game if he was linkable either. Or was given an Auxbot.
     
  15. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Not going to happen, fluff is written in 3rd Offensive book.
     
  16. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    teutons wouldnt benefit from MA1 and berserk as MA1 wouldnt apply to berserk roll. Now MA2 and berserk would allow them to use the dmg modifier on their berserk roll, making them more threatening overall.

    NBW would be even better
     
  17. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Oh silly human, stop pretending you are chad Ariadna who can get specialist+camo+crazy CC+good BS weapon ^^

    (and actually one of only units who actually benefit from Assault skill, and on same note have even a chance against Mushashi in CC)
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Maybe Uprising should've be written with Comic Sans? :P

    Re: MO update - I really think that aside from making hacker and MSV2 OS linkable, fixing BF sniper, and finally doing something with the Teutons nothing needs to be changed. I like the way this update turned out.
     
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  19. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    i'd take mimetism on on the sepulcher if they gave it on top of FDl2 :/
     
  20. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    No, you wouldn't. It has the NFB tag ;)
     
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