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Minimum points for a list and retreat

Discussion in 'ITS' started by Diphoration, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    Greetings,

    I was reading up on retreat today and I thought of a scenario that could happen and should probably be fixed via ITS rules. (As it affects ITS missions that ends in retreat)

    If the sum of the survivors' Cost in points is equal to or less than 25% of the points available for building the Army List, then that army enters a state of Retreat!.

    The way the rule is worded, if someone were to make a list with 75 points or less in a tournament where the available point for list building is 300 (the standard), then they would start their first turn in retreat.


    In a scenario where the mission ends on retreat, the player could simply score any objective points in his first and only turn (via a trooper with courage or by spending command tokens) and win the game. (The best example is Power Pack, where the player could have a infiltrating specialist next to one of the consoles)

    I think a minimum number of points should be enforced for ITS events (probably 3 points under the maximum, such as 297 for a 300 points event)
     
    NorthernNomad and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  2. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Aside from this being a purely intellectual exercise - no TO would allow such a list - such player wouldn't start his turn in retreat. He would start with a 74 pts army, with Retreat kicking in when he'd have 18 pts left.
     
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  3. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member

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    Of course, still worth clearly up the rule to know if a 296 point list wound retreat at 74 or 75.

    ---

    Behold peak list building.

    Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    CLIPSOS (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)

    1 SWC | 72 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This list has 98.499375% chance of winning with at least a minor victory if you go first.
     
  4. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I think the rule that covers this situation is the one that references Sportsmanship...
     
  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    hahahaaha good catch.....Theres the door
     
  6. Fathoym

    Fathoym Well-Known Member
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    So you're saying it's got a <50% chance of winning before the lieutenant roll? Doesn't seem that game-breaking to me, even if someone did rule it legal - which no one would.
     
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  7. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    My understanding is that the retreat threshold is based on the agreed-upon game size (i.e. 300 points) not the exact number of points in your list (296 in this case).
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  8. Fathoym

    Fathoym Well-Known Member
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    I thought it was size of list - which is why Baggage affects your retreat threshold?
     
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  9. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    It's not clear; baggage would apply either way, as it explicitly modifies your retreat threshold.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Baggage

     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  10. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    My understanding is based on things like the table under the retreat rule, which includes thresholds for several common game sizes.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Retreat!

    If the sum of the survivors' Cost in points is equal to or less than 25% of the points available for building the Army List, then that army enters a state of Retreat!.


    Emphasis added.
     
  11. Fathoym

    Fathoym Well-Known Member
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    Oh I see, yeah I think you're right.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    There was literally a post on this a few months back. In the Spanish version of the rules, the 25% goes against the full value of the army list (that is, whatever is written on your paper document. So a list of 74pts needs to get down to about 18 to go into retreat), while the english version goes against the amount available to make the list (so a 74pts list would start in retreat).

    This is irrelevant, however, since if you win the initiative round, you can simply deploy less than 74pts of models "forgetting" to deploy the rest and start in Retreat.

    Aleph can be really egregious with this:
    ALEPH
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]4 [​IMG]1
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.1 Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)

    1 SWC | 42 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    And you still can cram a Deva functionary if you want, or go for cheap specialists (Dakini Paramedic at 16pts, for example), while cramming the rest of the list with other stuff (like the needed hacker to deploy those dakinis).
     
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  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    The problem is with armys that dont have cheap fillers (tohaa) our cheapest unit is the diplomat for 5 points. So there shouldnt be a 295point list but a 296 is possible
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I don’t believe the rules allow you to not deploy your models. How you choose to resolve this is also left open, but that just means a TO has a lot of flexibility if someone tries to pull this.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Some would suggest the best way for a TO to deal with someone trying this is half a brick in a sock :)
     
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  16. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    i had a similar thought last year
    and mahtamori provided a list example.
    and then we started debating if the spanish words meant 25% of your list or 25% of what was available. English words is clearly the latter.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    I would actually like a ruling on that so I can make sure mayanet is doing it correctly.
     
  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Why bother finding a brick when you have the offender's minis to use
     
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  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I'm a stickler for tradition.

    Though Caskuda in a sock is also acceptable.
     
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  20. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    I think careful reading of the rules could provide a counter 'gotcha' argument, especially if the anti-rules lawyer has access to the ITS documents, Spanish rules, English rules, and wiki and is willing to cross-reference. However looking for a counter loophole is too much work. The correct answer is a Caskuda in a sock.
     
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