1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Minimum effort

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    2,643
    I went through the lists and opponents and figured out as much as I could from my end. @Guerillajam can give further information.

    However what I found, out of 5 opponents with 10 lists, only 1 list was packing both the right type of hacker and at least 2 backline repeaters which was @deadfli_goes_splat first Druze list.

    They played each other in round 3, whether the Liu Xing was utilised in this match against the specific Druze list maybe one of those two people can tell us.

    At the risk of being accused of being "offensive" I will also conclude this with the only person that the Liu Xing was potentially used against that exploited the weakness the model has, only won 1 game the entire event. In the context of the Liu Xing's hacking vulnerabilities don't matter, this particular example of the Liu Xing at the event when put in context doesn't fill me with enough reason or confidence to change my opinion on it.

    Unrelated: @Flipswitch I appreciate your record keeping of the event. Being able to look at this stuff is nice.

    I don't believe that is enough to qualify it as a viable model. Oniwabans dictated deployment and restricted movement, but Oniwabans are also extremely effective pieces and don't have an inbuilt achilles heel like the Liu Xing does.
     
    #61 Triumph, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    4,255
    What that shows me is that the main weakness of the Liu Xiang as you see it is against strong hacking networks, and that those networks are not actually seen that often in competitive play.

    If you face a lot of strong hacking networks then fair enough but I don't believe that is true of all metas or all competitive play.

    Also Oniwabans totally did have an Achilles heel: mines. Similarly, the Liu Xiang has a weakness: hacking. But not mines, it should be noted.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,949
     
  4. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Here we have a tendency of around quarter to a third of players playing Ariadna, and then another good quarter or so of players tending not to favor extensive infowar use.
    Granted, the local meta does have a lot of ''go spam or go broke'' and ''TR HMGs are the be all-end all of listbuilding.'' ( I swear in the year or so I've been playing this game I have only ever seen a list without at least one TR bot that wasn't ran by a new player who simply didn't have one... a grand total of one time. And most newer players still gravitate towards taking them for some reason. T: )
    So people might be skimping on hacking in favor of TR bots and cheap bodies.

    That does give some much-needed match-up context.

    As a person who likes neat and tidy data just for the sake of there being neat and tidy data to look into...

    I second this appreciation.

    The commonality can vary wildly among local metas, though.

    A meta based on spam and a good chunk of Ariadna will clearly have little need for infowar, and unless somehow shifted violently, probably won't extend much into it either, since it's not a relevant sollution.

    But a meta that has less spam/Ariadna and/or more REM/TAG/HI play will probably end up having a common infowar pressence... which can loop back into players doubling down on infowar to compete further at it, since out-hacking is a relevant sollution here.

    What I want to say here is that there's a strong chance that the hackier a meta is, the greater chance it'll end up doubling-down on the hackiness to the point where a Liu Xing makes the Guijia seem viable.
    Although on the flip-side, a hackless meta would have less chances of accruing hacker heavy players/lists since those are less relevant ( Though there's an argument to be said about going heavier into infowar for the explicit purpose of dwarfing everyone elses infowar. ).



    TL;DR: I stand by what I said when the Liu Xing first released: it's probably one of the most, if not the most meta dependant units in the game.
     
  5. Guerillajam

    Guerillajam Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2019
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    6
    Right to give you a bit more of an account I didnt actually play the Liu Xing into the Druze I used my Hac Tao and Su Jian list. I used the Liu Xing as a secondary turn threat in most games. I only used him offensively to drop onto someone in 3 games. I didnt play any ariadna but I feel that alot of the time he is a toolbox model not a win the game model which is what I value in my playstyle.

    First game was against a Shasvastii Opponent who had 3 camo markers placed in the center of the board. Which exposed the caliban, mine and a shrouded. Second game was against ISS where he fluffed the roll but walked back on and managed to get a clutch hack onto a hsien thanks to a quang shi turning himself into a repeater. Last game was against NCA where he dropped onto two remotes and came round the corner to take out a fusilier link.

    All in all he performed admirably and I agree with Solar that he is a potential threat and if used correctly he can decimate an unprepared opponent. Even in games where I didn't use the drop to deal damage it isnt about going up against a full link team or a hacker spam he still performs well for the points investment and helps to corral the opponent into my net of camo infiltrators

    In every game he served as a good piece trade and worked well I think you are putting too much emphasis on the jump attack and not on the psychological effect it can generate.
     
    East of Irem, Azuset, Paegis and 3 others like this.
  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    2,588
    Likes Received:
    4,255
    And yet someone can take the Liu Xiang to a large competitive multi-list event and encounter several lists where they have taken a very light or no hacking presence, as we have seen. So while there is a meta-dependent issue, clearly this absolutely has not excluded the Liu Xiang from high level play.
     
    Guerillajam likes this.
  7. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    1,307
    Emphasis mine

    So this was my list for the second round which played against Guerillajam's Lu-Xing list:

    Satellite 2
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    RAICHO MULTI HMG + Heavy Shotgun, Mine Dispenser / . (2 | 94)
    [​IMG] RAICHO PILOT 2 Heavy Pistols, D-Charges, Knife. ()
    OVERDRON 2 Heavy Rocket Launchers / . (2 | 57)
    [​IMG] STALDRON Flash Pulse / Knife. (0 | 0)
    KERR-NAU (UPGRADE: White Noise) Plasma Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    M-DRONE Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
    IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
    MENTOR Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
    E-DRONE Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 28)
    DĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
    SLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ÍMETRON . (0 | 4)

    5.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I can hack his transport, I also had a KHD vs an assault hacker Liu Xing and a decent repeater web on my back line. When the LX dropped it didn't kill anything with explode (it came for the objectives) but it still landed on target and then quite frankly was an absolute bastard to remove

    [​IMG]
    ^From the game, Notice my repeaters are on the flanks.

    The LX came in for the anntennae on the left.

    For my 2 pence The Liu Xing is great, If I haddn't gone with CA my second choice would have been IA (which i refuse to use at an event until I have a mowang model) and one of my lists would have had an Liu Xing.
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    2,643
    On my end of the world I find that they very much are, often just because Flash Pulse spam is a real thing.

    I don't find a model good in design if it's utterly meta dependent. It needs to be stronger in a secondary role if its main purpose is going to get gimped like that. One of the locals asked me if I'd have less problems with it if it had AD5, so opting to jump wasn't such a massive risk. I agree with that change because it both differentiates it from Tigers and fixes one of the main problems which is you wanna jump but you really don't wanna fuck it up because of how much the model costs.

    Mines however don't litter the table and are far easier to avoid, due to being largely attached to moderately costly models and packing an SWC tax on top of a trigger zone requirement.


    I don't have time right this instant but later I will actually go through all the lists and see whether your meta does in fact not have a high proportion of the hacking+repeater network we're talking about. For future reference I will say now that I consider anything about a third of the field or higher too high for my tastes to consider the Liu Xing able to operate effectively versus the cost of bringing one. Your opinion may vary there.



    You know I completely missed it was an AHD Liu Xing in that list, and that opens a whole new can of worms. It also increases the number of opponents that it struggles to attack into.

    Serious question. What was stopping you from simply firing a Pitcher near its position in the middle of the table and melting its brains out with Kerr-Nau given it was an AHD? Numbers put that to 49% chance to kill it outright.


    I have problems with the bolded part because I find it just doesn't generate a psychological effect. In fact I think most people I play into are probably just happy I don't have something more annoying to deal with in the list.
     
    Zewrath likes this.
  9. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    459
    Likes Received:
    627
    I used a multi liuxing 3 times at the tournament I went to the other day. He fucked the drop on one and sat in my DZ for the rest of the game. The second time he fell in and shot a data tracker then got beat up by makauls. The third game he walk onto my board edge to fight neema where my hsien hmg would had a hard time.

    Idk a tiger probs would have about as good and I didn't get to utilize explode.
     
  10. IAGO242

    IAGO242 Executive Officer

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2018
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    93
    Just make Shang Ji BS14 with no point increase. Is that OP then? IDK. Still don't have an HMG profile so I don't think it would be.
     
    Space Ranger likes this.
  11. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    635
    Likes Received:
    1,307
    Purely down to orders, dumping a pitcher would have been one more than a good volley of blast plasma on the way to where he was going, IIRC Liu Xing had also already taken a wound at that stage after some scrappin' so the numbers were better for the plasma. Kermit was already putting down some white noise on the opposite flank which allowed me to get into a better position vs a ghost wolf and a rui-shi and losing the HD to a lucky blackout or another unexpected hacker would have sucked.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,450
    Likes Received:
    2,643

    Ok so hectic weekend behind me I had time to sit down and look at the entire field. For context I was looking for lists that had at least one hacker/AHD combined with at least two repeaters.

    I am leaving the fact that the Liu Xing was a hacker and therefore vulnerable to KHDs alone, it's a can of worms I don't think we particularly want or need to open here. If you want to take this into account though add a few percentage points as I classified the lists like some of the Shaas and JSA ones with KHDs and repeaters as not having appropriate hackers under the first bullet point. Naturally the armies that basically can't hack like Tohaa and Ariadna are included in the count still.

    After analysing 110 lists:
    • Lists without hackers: 41%
    • Lists with hackers but fewer than 2 repeaters: 21%
    • Lists with hackers and 2 or more repeaters: 38%
    Take what you will from that. Only considering the last bullet point I don't consider that an insignificant amount at all and I would consider your friend lucky to have not actually run into any hacking issues with his Liu Xing at all during the event across 5 games.

    You might try to argue that using the repeater bubbles defensively, perhaps even ensuring they're hidden from sight is an out of character play. I would say the opposite, you're playing into Yu Jing, the HI faction. They're gonna come at you with some kind of tough HI bastard protecting your hacking network and hackers to keep them out of your face should be high on your priorities, this is basic 101 shit they lost both their premier attack LI in Uprising and neither sectorial utilises LI/MI links to attack with. You will be fighting HI, utilise your HI counters and don't toss them away for nothing.

    Unrelated topic. Way less Varuna than I expected, way more NCA than I expected and your NCA players really like Deva AHDs.

    I can't really comment on whether or not I agree with the order expenditure or sequence as I don't have nearly a clear enough picture of what happened. But from what it sounds like the Liu Xing copped a wound from one of your AROs, meaning on your turn you were facing a 1W ARM3 model with no vis mods.

    We clearly have very different definitions of what constitutes as being "an absolute bastard to remove" because in my books a 1W ARM3 model with no MODs is fairly low down on the list.
     
    #72 Triumph, May 7, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Yeah... This forum is honestly living in a fever dream when it comes to Varuna. It is, by far, THE most overrated sectorial in this game in terms of power level. People have lost their shit over the Kamau Sniper, completely forgetting that this an active turn game, not the over way around.

    NCA is far more competitive, pre- and post updates/buffs. They can spam waaay more -6 MOD gunfighters and still easily clock in 18+ orders.
    As for the Deva AHD, that profile is essentially a Godsend for NCA, as it basically replaces the otherwise mandatory Hexa KHD, which were also decent because NCA have potentially Nomads levels of repeater coverage, so now they not only got access to the best ARO KHD Program, but can now spam Oblivion on a reliable platform to boot.

    Varuna isn't weak by any stretch but holy hell it crumbles quick once you eliminate 2 key models, they are worse than ISS in that regard.
     
  14. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,095
    Likes Received:
    2,164
    I like the idea to of minimal changes. and some of these are quite cool.

    Hulang. Yes. definitely this.

    Guijia. Wildcard is an interesting application. But I think it doesn't add as much value as hoped... giving similar results to a yan huo haris, given the haris members are going to limit your mobility a lot anyway.
    I think MA1 1 more point of CC and something short range like pistol or a template weapon might give it a bit more flexibility. For no points cost of course.

    Shang Ji.
    Agreed, less CC but keep PH. No heavy pistol.
    Still think they need a mix up of weapon load-outs to be the HI with exotic weaponry, or to be specialists.

    Zhanshi
    YES. I'd like that 1 point to drop off too but I'd take this.

    Zhencha - yeah killer hacker profile. I like the LGL idea too. Although i don't know if I agree with the proliferation of spec fire in the game, and I don't know if its the solution you'd want in IA given the scarcity of orders, having the dice rolls on spec fire go against you could be catastrophic.
     
    Zewrath and Mahtamori like this.
  15. Maksimas

    Maksimas Maxi

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,498
    Likes Received:
    1,218
    Yeah, it still boggles me how blown out of proportion the whole "But they have Mimetism MSV2 BS13 Wildcard snipers! D:" debacle is, especially considering how nobody, not a single soul has made a single peep about the fact that IA, that released right alongside Varuna, has an MSV2 BS13 Wildcard sniper as well. You'd think people would make a fuss about how a sectorial full of high-grade solo pieces gets a cheap MSV2 pseudo-2W sniper like they did with Varuna, but nope.

    And this isn't to forget the OSS realease earlier that year with it's defensive link as well.

    Varuna is cool and all, and they do look fun... but they don't seem nearly as strong as people make it out to be.

    EDIT:

    Just for comparisons sake.

    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KAMAU (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    PATSY GARNETT Submachine Gun, Nimbus Plus Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 37)
    ORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
    KAMAU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    ZULU-COBRA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)

    4 SWC | 209 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)

    4 SWC | 227 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    You'd imagine the latter would make people more upset, no?
     
    #75 Maksimas, May 8, 2019
    Last edited: May 8, 2019
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,474
    Likes Received:
    8,047
    Varuna Orcs are what'll cause headaches. Otherwise Varuna has been described as very passive.

    The Kamau is a benchmark for how well a unit performs in forcing an entrenched position. It's the worst-case scenario that you'll face during your active turn and much like how you need a response to TR HMG, you need a response to the Kamau or something similar to progress. However, anyone who chooses to let the Kamau's 5-man fireteam ARO strength reflect on the entire sectorial has lost perspective on what it is they are looking at - particularly since from what I can tell it's very uncommon for tables to be open enough so as a sniper being able to cover an entire table.
     
    Maksimas likes this.
  17. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Unless you're playing at Interplanetario.. :white_frowning_face:
     
  18. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    360
    I am gonna call all NCA players that I know and say they are idiots for running Garuda because Triumph warned about scary h-h-h-h-hackers sure sure
     
    Solar likes this.
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,949
    Huh? That's actually a legit concern for people dropping in a Garuda (speaking as a person who mains ISS), right next to corner Chain Rifles against your ARM0 trooper. Add in the fact that they cannot Cautious Move past Repeaters.

    What mitigates much of that though is that the Garuda is something like 20 points, in 3-4 armies that can easily spam shit ton of orders for it. IA have no such luxury, so it hurts much more for that unit to have such a drawback.
     
    SKOZZOKONZ likes this.
  20. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2018
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    360
    Do corner DTWs negate any use of drop troops ever? Literally unplayable?
    Neither do repeater networks with scary unbeatable Fusilier hackers.

    Maybe just maybe windmill slamming a drop trooper on an entrenched position on the 1st turn is a bad idea and it is always better to clear house after the defenses are somewhat taken care of.