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Minimum effort

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This is a theorycrafting, whishlisting, bonanza. If you don't like that sort of thing, be warned and move on to a different thread.

    Just getting this out of my system about Invincible Army. It's basically "making some of the less popular unit options more viable through the least amount of changes" kind of thread. What you need to be equipped with when reading this is the agreement that the sectorial is flawed in that it lacks the ability to limit its vulnerabilities more than most sectorials. You also need equip yourself with the mentality that maybe, just maybe, fairly small changes can make big differences.

    Zhencha
    Boarding Shotgun profile: - D-charges, +Light Grenade Launcher, +3 points
    Yes, I'd likely have to shut up about grenades if this happened. It won't be uber-massive in the way of giving Zuyong or Shang-Ji LGL, but it'd put a distinct spin on the profile. Also, I honestly have no idea how to make the hacker worthwhile without making it a Killer Hacker.

    Hulang
    All profiles: - Duo, +CH: Limited Camouflage
    There. Done. Hard to alphastrike and has a limited shot at mobility without giving the faction smoke.

    Guijia
    LT profile: Lieutenant L2, 2 SWC
    All profiles: Limited Wildcard - May join any Haris or Duo in sectorial
    A TAG in a Haris? Are you mad!? Yes, but up until recently I thought MSV2 and smoke in the same fireteam was banned, barred, and big no no. But here we are. I'd simply make him a pure Wildcard, but I think someone might choke on their biscuit if that happened.

    Shang-Ji
    All profiles: -1 CC, +1 BS, -2 PH, +1 WIP, -1 ARM, -Shock CCW, +Heavy Pistol, +0 points
    Yes, that's Tai-Sheng with less fancy gear.

    Zhanshi Yisheng & Zhanshi Gong-Cheng
    Counts as a Zhanshi for Fireteam purposes
    This is a pet peeve. One of those small things that makes Zhanshi link lists hard to build in IA is that the Doctor and Engineer can't link - not because of AVA, but because of combat group space and the utility requirements of such a link. Also please fix the Engineer's name! Pretty please?

    Spec-Ops
    Haidao for sectorial Spec-Ops.
    It's not quite as bonkers as a Deva, and it's a HI, and the unit reads like it's the Navy's spec-ops. It's a perfect match!
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    TAGs already do Haris links, and it's not like we don't already have access to BS14 Multi HMG in Haris links so it wouldn't really be that out there.
     
  3. Someone

    Someone Active Member

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    Would be a ton of points but would give Guija a tinbot option.
     
  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Hate to sound negative but wishing and hoping is asking for depression. Play with what you have, not what you want.
     
  5. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Oh... Actually it has worked pretty well for PanO, they got more than the 80 % of things they wished for.
    Besides, when I see one IA tester affirming he wins games with the Hulang and acknowledging the Liu Xing is the star of IA and the pure core of Shang Ji one of the most powerful tools this sectorial has to offer… either we suck so much or no wonder why we get the impression of IA as a half baked army.
     
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think they understood mostly that people stopped playing something and needed to re-vitalize it to make it sell. If no one plays IA, they might make the changes needed. I like @Mahtamori ideas! They are good ones, but at this point, right after changes have happened, it's going to be years before we see anything changed again. If anything it will be due to pride and not wanting to say they f'd up.
     
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  7. Kalendo

    Kalendo Well-Known Member

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    For the assault Hacker zencha, what if they gave it a pitcher? that would certainly make it interesting, although I personally would love a 3rd khd option freeing up my haido for msv2 sniper duty.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'd say there's a small risk that'd make Haidao in Fireteams bananas against enemy hackers. Big risk, actually. Would also shift the faction (IA and vanilla) towards info war fairly significantly.

    Maybe if they had a Repeater? Not a deployable one. Weirder synergy. A personal repeater.
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Maybe a deployable repeater. I like that I have the option on the Hunzakut in Dahshat.
     
  10. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
    Warcor

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    Laughed so hard
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very true! A lot of what PanO got in terms of 'fixing' units was the smallest changes wished for, but they were generally pretty solid and overall well-appreciated.



    That IA tester needs to lay off the ouzo. And/or maybe play with the same profiles the rest of us are!

    If he is sober and using the same profiles, he needs to share some tactical tips!



    ===========
    Let's see here.
    Haidao: BTS3, please. Why is a cold-navy unit without vacuum protection?!? Also makes them better protected against EM, which is important for the specialist unit in a Fireteam. Making them the SpecOps isn't unreasonable, though I'd rather the IA SpecOps profile be the Zuyong (Haidao are Navy, not Army, it's an important difference).

    Zuyong: Drop them to 1W+NWI+Shock like the rest of the IA troops, -3pts per profile. This also fixes an issue with making Zuyong (or Haidao) the SpecOps for IA, because 2W+NWI is brutal.

    Liu Xing: These guys need a big rework, I'm not sure where to begin. I'd really like to put the Tigers back into IA, which means really bumping the LX up in capability. I'm thinking a cost in the upper 50s or low 60s, up there in Daofei and Hac Tao turf. I think one of the biggest issues with the LX is it's vulnerability to hacking, which I'd address with BTS6 and Deflector L2. I'm leaning towards making the LX a flying Shang Ji, plus Mimetism. Yes, it's supposed to be terrifying.

    Shang Ji: Kinematika L2 and Deflector L2 on all profiles (basically making the tech foundation of the Crane and Shang Ji the same, but Cranes have CC skills instead of Deflector). Give them the Multi+LGL profiles of the Wu Ming.

    Zhencha: Shock Immune, so they can hang out in the midfield with mines and SMGs. Maybe drop to FD2 to keep the cost the same. And mines on all the profiles, please!

    Daofei: Bring these into the IA like their fluff from the beginning of the game says.

    Hulang: I don't want to give them smoke. But they really need smoke!

    Mowang: No change, these guys are really pretty good. The problem is their competition. If I was feeling evil, I'd suggest Full Auto L2, but that would make them a clone of the Kriza Boracs. I'd like to keep the 'shorter range beatstick' identity, so that there is more difference in tabletop role between the Demon Lord and the Yan Huo. Actually FA1 wouldn't be unreasonable. It's FA2 on a Mimetic unit that would be over the top.

    Guijia: Needs a tweak sideways to be more useful, it's out-competed as a shooty thing by the Yan Huo. So the Guijia needs something that the YH doesn't. I'd bring back the HGL profile (or maybe an auto-GL, B3 DAM13 templates with a 16-24" sweet spot), and possibly the Mine Dispenser.
     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    I'm actually happy with most of IA, but I do think the Guijia and Shang Ji could use some help.

    Shang Ji- They pay a lot for stats and are left just short of reliable. NBW and Marksmanship L2 would give them a chance against just about anything, at range or in CC.

    Guijia- Minimum effort fix? Remove SWC tax on LT first. Then deal with the fact all it has to offer the faction is its resilience when it is more vulnerable to every exotic way of disabling something in this game than most of the HI by adding Veteran L1 and Total Immunity with Vulnerabilities to K1 and AP ammo. Would exacerbate price issues even more, but there wasn't room for anything but the Zhanshi core anyway.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]


    Somebody needs to fire that dumbass from testing stuff.
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'm liking everything in the OP. I'd also give the Hulang the frenzy discount. It's odd to see of all the units that do get it, they don't.

    I just want the Guijia to be usable.
     
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  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    The forum really needs a "rules suggestions" area. Then theres a place for people to post this type of stuff, to vent about how certain rules are shit and suggest changes, post custom missions etc, and who knows... maybe a place for CB to poach ideas from.

    What the actual fuck
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Shang-Ji Core is one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful tool this sectorial has to offer. You just won't have anything but the Shang-Ji core to work with; a Daoying, and some random assortment of Zhanshi in the rest of your list, so if your opponent fields a Kamau Core, a couple of TR HMG, a bunch of Muttawiah, a hacker net, etc, you won't have the tools to punch through.

    I didn't add Liu Xing to the list because I don't find it to be much of a problem. If I were to min-max it, I'd remove Explode LX on the condition it costs points (seriously, it's more situational and much weaker than a DEP), but you simply have to pick your targets and punch a hole for them if your opponent has an air tight repeater net. Then for all future games, make sure terrain doesn't have even distribution of hiding spots in the DZ, because seriously, deployment should also be a challenge for horde type armies, particularly if you're trying to space out a bunch of baggage and sniffer REMs.
     
  17. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    In regards to Guija, I think they need to make those sweet swords (both on regular and the limited versions) worth something. AP-DA (value for smashing missions!) and at least MA1 to back it up would be my solution.
    And of course Duo so it can walk a Haidao on a leash.

    Mine Dispenser or HGL are already used options to spice up the stock 8-6 MHMG TAG and are kinda boring at this point.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I figured making the Guijia take the Sectorial Way Out for making a profile valuable would be interesting. It doesn't alter the profile and sets it apart something fierce from Maghriba and Raicho.

    However, if I got to make only one deeper change; Berserk?

    It's fairly cheap and would add an emphasis of fighting by making use of the armour. Against monsters like Saito, Ninjas, and Knights it's a very destructive way of fighting, but with higher ARM, higher PH and higher STR than most more competent opponents, you'll likely be trading up simpky by outlasting them.
    Avoid Oniwaban, Tanko, and Domaru like the plague.

    (And yeah, I'm trying hard to find a way of thinking outside the box here)
     
  19. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    I really like a lot of these ideas, sadly I think the only one that stands a chnace of a tweak is the Shang Ji. Due to basically not having a model at this point, they are ripe for a box set, which historically has been a chance for profile changes with other units.
     
  20. Greysturm

    Greysturm Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, i honestly disagrre with most of the "solutions" proposed but i can agree that the guijia and shang ji are lacking something to set them apart from competition both inside the army and from other factions.
     
    #20 Greysturm, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019