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Mines and Civilians

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Hecaton, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I can see it as an outstanding issue simply because answers to other questions have been "it's an effect, effects are resolved after skills and AROs have been declared in the Order Expenditure Sequence "
    There's precedent that makes it less clear than it should, simply put.
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Could you give me an example? Effects being resolved with that timing would break almost every Skill in the game.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Deploying Mines.
     
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That would apply as much to the triggering as removal. By that logic either they would both occur during Resolution or neither.
     
  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That timing is specified in the rule.
    • Mines or Camouflage Markers are not considered deployed until the Conclusion of the Order.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Are you pulling my leg right now or are you being serious?

    Every skill that isn't movement is resolved after all skills have been declared, because movement has a special exception. Coup de Grace is probably one of the most simple examples. Activate is another.

    I think you also need to explain step 8 of the Order Expenditure Sequence...
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Triggering isn't a skill and if it were then it'd be a template attack with a clear sequence of operations where effects step would be the ARM roll.
     
  8. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Yes, I'm being serious, but I have a suspicion we're talking at cross-purposes.

    If all the Effects bullets of a Skill are applied in step 8 and never before, you can't resolve Effects bullets like this one:
    • At the time of the BS Attack declaration, the user must choose which of his appropriate BS Weapons, Special Skills or pieces of Equipment to use.
    Is that the kind of Effect you're talking about?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we're talking cross-purposes.

    No, I mean effects without a clear and consistent exception or with no external rules governing sequence.

    A mine's "once ... triggers" is a bit nebulous. Is it removed as soon as it starts triggering (i.e. essentially prior to placing the template)? Is it removed after all triggering effects have been resolved?
     
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  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well, the best I can do is present the issues that I think exist.

    Part of the issue, I think, is that there's a consensus about how to play the game but not a consensus about what the rules say - if someone just reads the rulebook, a lot of this stuff isn't actually clear. But then you go on the forums, and people take the "Let's just play how @ijw says to play, regardless of what the rulebook says or doesn't say." Which, in my opinion, is a bad way to structure a game's rule set, regardless of how good @ijw 's intentions and skills are. It also might give CB the false impression that the rules are better curated than they are, when people are relying on someone with community authority rather than the rules themselves.

    I've only tossed as many insults in this discussion as have been levied against me - that is to say, very little.

    Other posters made the argument that mines aren't removed until the end of the order, and so it's not something I'm pulling out of thing air.

    Aight, if they get removed immediately when triggered, what's to stop me from walking a trooper over the location they were in to stop them from re-appearing? If it's sportsmanship, then that can be very subjective - some people would say that dunking your opponent's LT top of 1 is poor sportsmanship.
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Rules say mine is checked if it is triggered, Civilian prevents triggering, mine is not triggered.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The issue is that then you're left with a mine and a trooper occupying the same space, which the game can't handle.
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They don't not reappear. The game breaks. Don't break the game deliberately. It's not a sportsmanship thing it's a "oh this is impossible to resolve and I have to do it deliberately, let's not do that then".

    How are you not getting that?
     
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  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Except you know the mine will still be there, and you are making a conscious, bad faith decision to try and break the game.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm still not 100% with you on the whole "the game breaks" side of the argument.

    If the mine doesn't trigger, it means that the mine never left play (regardless whether you play with removing the mine when it starts triggering or when the effects of the trigger are done), meaning the trooper or model that's standing in the spot of the mine (or has moved through that spot) will have executed an illegal move.

    For me there's only two ways to possibly handle this;
    1. Move any models back the minimum distance along their movement path prior to touching the camouflage marker or so they are at most touching the mine marker at earliest opportunity (congratulations you are no in base to base with a mine - now you must duel it TO DEATH!).
    2. The player who moved into or through the spot where the mine was is currently cheating due to having executed an illegal move. Call the TO if such are available.

    Preferably, however, the mine is removed at end of the order during step 8 (effects), when its physical volume is no longer needed as a point of reference for the template. That's how Stockholm meta has been treating it from reading the rules.
     
  16. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As I said the mine checks to see it it gets triggered, it does not activate and be removed before the conditions to do so are met, so there is no "game breaking point" if one does not forcefully try to create one.

    The first question is can the mine be triggered? if the answer is no, either because it is a MM short, because friendlies are in the way and cannot be avoided, civilians ectr, then the mine cannot trigger and the entire sequence of been triggered does not happen.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori when does the Stockholm meta remove Perimeter Items that have declared Boost?
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I could even answer that one, it's not something that has been an issue so I don't remember any significant enough event. Perimeter is very uncommon and until I started playing IA almost exclusively I was the most devote user. I think if you pressed anyone (such as myself) they'd give a consistent answer with Mines. Perimeter Weapons are done being detonated, intuitively, at roughly the point when the opponent takes their ARM roll.

    Perimeter does pose an additional question, and that is if an enemy model is allowed to move into the path that the Perimeter has taken with Boost.
    (We have a local house rule which says Boost doesn't actually move, but instead only evaluates that it can reach the target.)
     
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  19. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    I'm not convinced that needs to be a house rule, I believe that's actually how the rule is meant to work.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Absent that local house rule, they end Step 4 B2B with their target. Which means if they're removed at Resolution you need to move around them.
     
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