What's interesting is that - with the exception of Intuitive Attacks (which are hardly a problem) - because Mines triggering is not a cancellation clause of Camo you don't need the "can't be a target of an attack" provision. Nothing stops a player walking into the trigger area of a Drop Bear, facetanking the template and firing a template weapon at the Mine marker. Even though it is removed after Step 3 it was still there at that step and so can be shot at Step 5 due to all-at-one-time. You could argue that this prevents people walking through space, at Step 5, previously occupied by the Mine until Step 4. But at that point, practically, the Mine is remaining in place until Resolution and the rules tell you to remove it before then. Again, Perimeter Items provide a degenerate example: if a Perimeter Item was present in all positions it occupied during its Boost (at Step 5 of the order) players could use this to prevent a Move + Move because not allied-troopers block movement. So I see the timing as follows: Step 3. Mine present Step 4. Mine triggers and is removed Step 5. Mine absent To be valid, a BS Attack would need LOF to a non-Camo'd Mine at Step 3 (notwithstanding Intuitive Attack).
It doesn't imply a different timing: that phrasing creates one explicitly. Removal immediately follows triggering. Now I can see an argument why RAW is wrong, or an argument that RAI was intended to imply regular timing but I can not see an argument about what RAW actually says. What's more, this isn't actually a problem. Except for the example where a player deliberately untriggers a Mine by moving a Civilian through the template and into the space temporarily unoccupied by the Mine, the interaction is awkward but not problematic. This exceptional circumstance cannot happen by accident and can be safely solved by going "please don't deliberately break the game".
You can't clear the mine this way. At the end of the order the mine will not have triggered and so will not be removed and will be on the table in it's original position. Putting your Civvie in a place that the mine was and you know will be at the end of the order you break the game because the situation is unresolvable. It's not analogous to Deploying a Mine and then Moving into that location: that invalidates the deploying Trooper's declaration so it becomes an Idle. Don't deliberately try to break the game and this isn't an issue. Ie don't Move a civilian in such a way as to create an unresolvable situation, stop short of the position that was and will be occupied by the Mine.
@inane.imp I think that the mine has already triggered and left the table at that point. If the rules let you do it, it's kosher.
The rules don't let you do it. You create an unresolvable situation that isn't covered by the rules: deliberately exploiting a bug to crash the game isn't legal.
That's all predicated on the idea that a mine can be retroactively un-triggered; I don't think it can.
Cool. There's not much point continuing to discuss it then. I'll be over here playing with @ijw's house rules along with basically the entire rest of the global meta [emoji14] /gentle-ribbing-meant-in-good-humour
I guess. I see a lot of people do things other than what he says, though. Like you mentioned in another thread, though, this is an emergent interaction that probably wasn't considered when writing the civilian, mine, or HVT rules. The fact that it wasn't is a problem, however, and that problem with the process should be remedied.
I know that. My explanation was from a logical / background perspective. If you want the rule for mines vs civilian it's in the FAQ. Imho you are overthinking it.
If you are in the trigger area is imposible to do an Intuitive attack, because is a complete order, so you should be inside in the order before XD so the mine should be gone after detonates ;) The other case, if the mine triggers and explodes after your half first order, because the mine is removed in this precisely moment, it not exists anymore them, you couldn't select as a target in your second half order. No mines there. It is this antisequence which makes the mines so weird in the case of the Civilians, because it is a little weird "place a template" and later "unplace it". And yes, the movement sequence + "mines" is really "bizarre", the mine explotion and the mine place as ARO. @Marduck I'am a fan of your description of what's happens. Really agree with that.
@Urobros because, in both cases, the Mine existed at Step 3 of the order all-at-one-time applies and the mine is a valid target. It's the same thing as Move (go prone) + BS Attack. At Step 5 of the order there is no LOF to the target but the attack is still valid because during Step 3 a valid target existed.
I actually believe the player that gives the civilian into the path of the mine loses the game . It is similar to shooting a blast where it will catch a civilian. So the ruling is A) can't do it or B) You lose . Either the timing makes it so the mine does not got off and remains on the table or it goes off and the civilian must stay out of the way. We can't have best of all worlds. In all fairness though I am really really not someone who feels everything has to be written in very specific language. This way leads to 80s rule books for tile games . If you are stretching logic and the rules to gain advantage in a specific situation you are likely in the wrong and should just get back to having fun and rolling dice .
As per the FAQ, the Mine doesn't go off, and remains on the table. It's worth remembering that this is just an extension of the standard rules for Mines not triggering if they would affect a friendly or neutral model, that ensures this happens whether the Civilian is inside the template area already, or moves into it later in the Order.
You don't think it's clear. Everybody else does, and you've already been told in previous threads that that's how it works.
I think that it's very plausible that mines ere intended to be removed from the table immediately when triggered, and there's nothing in that FAQ that says it retroactively un-triggers them.
