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Mine getting caught by template weapon

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Aug 22, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I've got a mine deployed behind a low wall. A template weapon catches the top of it over the wall (without catching the actual base-sized S0 of the mine.) What happens?
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    If the "camo marker" has LoF to the activated enemy troop, then I think it was concluded somewhere else that it reveals the mine, and if the mine does not have LoF, it doesn't explode.

    Now, on murky(er) territories... I think the camo state is lost, but unless there is LoF to the S0 mine, the mine is not affected. I "tie" this reasoning with the rulling that a mine (in camo state) prevents an enemy trooper to enter into camo (or TO camo) state, "because the trooper doesn't know under the camo there is only a mine". Also, because the "trooper" would be forced to roll ARM/BTS, but the mine has a true S smaller than the camo marker. This, however, can be replied with "mines are not troopers, but gear"

    Finally, we can go to the other "there is only empty air here" situation: the holoprojector. One of the "empty" holoecho cancellation clauses indicates that the Holoecho state of a holographic decoy is canceled whenever It receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit (3rd clause), but can be argued that, while similar, the situation is not covered by the rules.

    Sorry, I can only provide those two options, but I can't find an explicit rule.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't think it would reveal the mine. It has to make an ARM or BTS save for that to be the case. If it revealed the mine it would also have a chance to destroy it.
     
  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Thus my second mention of the holoechos, those have no BTS/ARM values, you pop them just by hitting them yet the cancellation clause assumes they would roll.

    Also, I add http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Decoy_(State)#Cancellation in which the same is said about the decoys: The Decoy state of a replica is cancelled, whenever It receives a successful hit that forces it to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit (again 3rd point).

    We have the Hardcase as an example.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @xagroth Sure, but at that point the mine would be taking the hit as well.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Section9 and Sabin76 like this.
  7. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I would say the Mine gets revealed, because:
    1) Concealed Mine is in Camouflaged state, which gets cancelled if "The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.)". Since template hits the S2 of the Camouflaged Mine, anything hidden behind it has to make an ARM/BTS roll.
    2) By leaving the Mine in a Camouflaged state the game gets too complicated as you have to remember that this particular Camo Marker is actually S0 instead of S2 while it also doesn't have Prone marker to denote its lower silhouette. I'd reveal the Mine just for the sake of simplicity.
    3) Once you hit the Camo Marker and it doesn't roll its save due to actually having S0, I think you gain quite enough information to deduce that this is not a real Camouflaged trooper, therefore there's no logical ground to leave it Camouflaged. This gets especially unfair if you declared an Intuitive Attack against the marker.

    P.S. I know @ijw ruled in favour of leaving the Mine Camouflaged, but his answer breaks the game's logic. You must have LoF to the target's Silhouette in order to be able to declare an Attack against it, and a Mine in Camouflaged state has S2. So if this Silhouette is affected by a template, then it gets hit. Any object on the battlefield can only have one Silhouette value at the time, so if a Mine which receives a hit while it's Camouflaged changes its Silhouette, how can this still go along with the line that states "If the Camouflage Marker is concealing a weapon or a piece of Equipment with the CH: Camouflage Special Skill, its Silhouette (S) value is 2."?
     
    #7 n21lv, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Are you making the argument that you can blow up a mine by catching the top of the silhouette with a flamethrower? I'd like that to be true, but it seems that a lot of people in the ITS community and @ijw disagree.
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    1. But the mine didn't receive the hit, the camo marker did.
    2. That's really not that hard, honestly. If someone discovers your mine, do you actually swap out the marker with a mine one, or do you just say, "alright, this camo is now a revealed mine" (for simplicity)? Actually revealing the mine allows someone to shoot at it without a discover.
    3. Again, the reason to keep it in camo is so that it must still be discovered.

    I actually don't like this particular interaction either, but I don't think you've demonstrated a rules argument for revealing the mine.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    A concealed Mine still has S0
     
  11. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    No, I am making an argument that this interaction is really confusing and between "leaving the mine Concealed and having S0 without any visual reminder to its actual Silhouette" and "revealing the mine" I choose the latter, as it is much simpler and also sounds logical. I see a weird bush that looks completely out of place in the desert, and decide (by succeeding a WIP rol for Intuitive Attack) to test it with my Heavy Flamethrower, just to be safe. Since I hear no death screams or see a burning body frantically trying to put out the flame, I conclude that it might still be a mine (because that bush wasn't there yesterday) and notify all my comrades of that weird bush.


    Really? Where does it say so? The description of the Concealed label literally states otherwise.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, it states that the Camouflage Marker has S2. The Marker isn't the same as the trooper or equipment it hides (and I challenge you to indicate where it says it is, because I can't show where it doesn't)
     
  13. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    You might not believe it, but I do replace it with a Mine. If someone would try to pull this trick on me, I'd kindly ask them to place a Mine marker instead, and in case of them objecting, I'd call a judge.
     
  14. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I'm asking you to provide a proof for your statement (a concealed Mine still has S0) and you're asking me to prove it? The laws of discussion do not work this way, my friend :P

    As per my statement, here's what I am basing my thesis on (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Traits): upload_2019-8-23_16-6-3.png
     
  15. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged
    • Camouflage Markers (CAMO) retain the Silhouette (S) values printed on their troop profiles.
    • If the Camouflage Marker is concealing a weapon or a piece of Equipment with the CH: Camouflage Special Skill, its Silhouette (S) value is 2.
    The question is: What does this 'its' refer to?
    The marker or the piece of equipment?

    Also:
    A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever:​
    So if the Camo Marker has S2 but the Mine still has S0 the Camo State will not be lost because even though the Marker is hit, there is no ARM save as the Mine isn't hit. (And did not trigger because as S0 it had no LoF)
    But if the Mine has S2 while in Camo State, then the State is lost, the Mine has to make a ARM save, but has also have to trigger as ARO as it was S2 when it was hit
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's not quite how it works. I can't prove that something doesn't exist, and it's you who are making the claim that a rule exists so you need to back it up.

    If you go to http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Traits and read Concealed, incidentally what you linked, you'll read (and I'll add underline emphasis) "Camouflage Markers concealing a weapon or a piece of Equipment have a Silhouette (S) value of 2.". As you'll note, it doesn't say that the equipment has S2, it says the Marker does.

    @daszul presents a better conundrum, though I argue that if you put the Concealed Trait and the Camouflaged state into context of each other it further removes doubt on what is the subject of "its". The reason why I don't write "removes all doubt" as I'd like to do is that Infinity rules has an annoying tendency not to repeat important information in the most relevant places so you end up having to dig in too many rules to find something out.
     
  17. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I am leaning towards @Mahtamori 's interpretation,
    but the text he quotes does not say anything about the mine,
    so it might still be S2 as well....

    Maybe this 'its' is clearer in the spanish rules (that I don't understand),
    because it might have a non-neutral gender that can only refer to one of the two possibilities?
     
  18. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Contractor for Bureau Aegis

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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    This is why I am going through and making double-sided Camo markers. Camo on one side, Mine on the other.
     
    xagroth, n21lv and DukeofEarl like this.
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Some of the tokens included in the Wildfire scenery kit are double sided Camo/Mine. They're 3mm thick so the right size for a Mine too.

    Is use 3d acrylic "Silhouette" markers for camo, but I also have a few acrylic mine tokens from Customeeple if needed.