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[MILITARY ORDERS TACTICS] Quo Peregrinatur Grex Pastor Secum ["300pts Box" WiP 06/04/19]

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    If you have a Fireteam set up, and have two "reserve" troopers for the Fireteam within a single move of joining when someone goes down, then it's true by definition.

    It might not be quite so easy depending on the precise positioning of all the members, especially if you have convenient niches in terrain and/or building interiors to use, but they ARE all going to be conveniently close together for a strong attack piece that gets in amongst them.
     
  2. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    Sorry it has taken me a few days to reply, slightly manic week.

    Thank you everyone for coming back, it really is appreciated.

    @daboarder 1.)I didn't feel like I was overinvesting in active pieces. I am used to them dying at a rate of about one a turn (often to ARO fire) so I feel like I have always needed three. Maybe I do just need to try with less of them, but I've always feared that stuff will just get crit off the board really quickly. I completely disagree with you on the strength of a Santiago, I've found them to be like paper. Not helped by my inability to use link teams probably, but I certainly don't think of them as difficult to kill, it's aprt of the reason I run so many active turn pieces. And Konstantinos was in the link to bring his MSV, as it was the only MSV I had in the list.

    2.) Part of the problem was I couldn't get the HMG into a good range. His missile launchers covered the entire board from where they were (it wasn't a well laid out board looking back on it. It was entirely one story buildings, except for a single two story that didn't block that much line of sight). The two of them pretty much locked me in my DZ. I hadn't thought about using the FOFO tbh, partially as it was the wrong side of the board, but could have been a good idea.

    3.) I have now looked at dog warriors and see what you mean. Didn't help my opponent had forgotten to bring a courtesy list, so everything was frankly terrifying to me. I thought dog warriors were insanely strong, hence what I said.

    4.) I get that ARO pieces are meant to die horribly, and I am fine with that. The problem is losing orders when I am running a 10 order list. Now that is a specific problem of LI lists, and i am not saying you are wrong at all, but that has been one of the reasons I have steered clear of them.

    I am really suprirsed by those stats, if the HMG is attacking outside of it's good range as well. I think one of the link team might ahve been a frontovik, there was definitely some mimetism or something somewhere inside that team, but I fhad guessed that the Kazak was closer to 25% likely to outright kill the knight. I was evidently very wrong!

    I genuinely can't remember what the pieces in the link were or what they ad now, so that could well be right.

    I have read the massed armour thread a few times, I just can't seem to apply it.

    @Marduck As I said above, yes, his two missile launchers could see my entire deployment zone (except for a narrow slice) from that location. I think that is something I would change next time, and make the table a lot less flat, as it really did hinder me. And they do play intent, but there was no way that I could slice the pie enough to be able to just see one. The problem was also that if I sliced the pie to try and kill the suppressive fire frontoviks in front of me, then the missile launchers would get a shot, and vica versa.

    The TOFO was on the wrong side of the board tbh, as was Dart really. The rest of his line kazaks were hidden inside a building, and mid game it turned out we were playing with windows as shootable through, something I have NEVER played before. I am used to playing buildings as accessible, but windows utterly threw me.

    That is what I try and do when setting something up, but they just always seem to get mined to death. :S And yeah, I like magisters a lot, but I just haven't played them much recently.



    @Ayadan - lIke I say, the problem was I couldnt get the missile launchers in line of fire, without coming under the suppressive fire of the Frontoviks+Vet Kazak that has set up in front of me. Using the TOFO is defijnitely not something I would have thought of.

    I literally had to go and look up cybermask. I never thought of that at all, very good shout!

    And I do ask, but again, I thought I knew what Vet 2 gave (I thought it just kept them regular in LoL). Mines certainly would have helped, it would have cost a lot more orders, but I just genuinely didn't think about it.

    I do try not to use the hospitaller core as a rule of thumb to be honest, I normally run the Haris if I run hospitallers at all, I much prefer Spitfire and Magisters normally.

    I never thought of MO as sneaky, but that does make a lot of sense.

    @Triumph Apologies, it just came off like that, so if that wasn't your intent, then thats on me. I think it's more the cost of the model, given it is so easy to kill. I am not expecting it to last the entire game, but I'd like to at least take up three or four orders, rather than the one order it always seems to.

    Like I say, I have used them in ARO before, normally bringing them out during an opoonenets final couple of orders to shoot something, but that's always been a secondary element rather than thinking of them as a dedicated ARO piece. Maybe I just need to try them in the way you are describing.

    Thank you everyone who has come back, it really is appreciated. I need to go away and have a think about some bits, but I think starting with fewer active turn pieces is probably the first piece.
     
  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No offence taken. Realistically if you want them to take multiple orders to remove you'll need to figure out applying overlapping fields of fire and trapping your opponent into those to get extra orders burned out of him. 3-4 orders is probably still an unrealistically high expectation against most opponents - any sectorial's core link is usually capable of brute forcing the vast majority of ARO pieces in the game.

    If something with BS13 and Burst 5 engages your ARO pieces unless it's a premium end defensive linked model like a Kamau you should plan for it to at least take a wound because the link bonuses of +3 BS and +1B are increasing the attackers odds to win by about 15-20%. Hope for the best but plan for the worst, when link teams attack AROs are generally more a question of how many wounds does that have and do they need to keep shooting it like a TR bot to stop it from being revived.

    Vanilla armies are more susceptible to getting stuck or needing more orders to get through it as they lack link bonuses. If you really want the TO MSRs to punish an sectorial's linked attacker you'll need them to overlap firing lines onto harder to kill targets like a core linked defensive ARO piece or reveal them as a trade to shoot at important but valuable link members caught in the open.
     
    #363 Triumph, Jul 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    @herod1204 Sorry for the late answer.
    I would love to help you more. It's a shame I don't have some vids about games I made on TTS with my MO. I'll see if I can have one at some time to show you how I play. Not saying it will fit you or MO should be played this way but it would still give you some keys. Most games I lost or won were more an accumulation of little to big mistakes from one of the players rather than the army itself being bad. MO is harder to be played well than the other sectorials as they aren't friendly with mistakes made by the player. Though, they give a lot more forgiveness to bad luck, which is useful once you begin to play at high level where luck has more influence since mistakes aren't so common.
    It is hard to remember all the options you have at hand when playing if you don't take a little time to take some distance before coming back to the game. It could be just 15 seconds but it will help you to not be stuck in the game and not see all your options.
     
  5. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
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    Just a quick note, not being able to "slice a pie" is really really hard to pull off. You literally need to have 2 aro pieces on the same vertical position and not have any visual interference that might result of one not drawing LOF.
    And to have a third suppressive fire piece threatening from some other place sounds mathematically impossible.

    @herod1204 Can you draw a diagram of the situation?

    Unless you are already starting the order in LOF of all of them, then there are no pies.
     
  6. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    @Guardian It still depends on the "play by intent" discussion and thus is subject to the local meta.
     
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  7. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    Short version is I can't draw you a diagram that was in any way shape or form accurate tbh.

    It was just a case of whenever I tried to poke a model out, it would be sighted by multiple things, sometimes over rooftops(which was a problem for moving forwards), other times poking around corners.

    The guy was seriously efficient, like he knew exactly how to position things to just shut me down completely.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
     
  8. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
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    Ok, but maybe look up the technique of "pie slicing" again to keep it in mind for the future. Its quite mathematical way of looking about LOF and feels a bit gamey but is perfectly legal and used in infinity normally. Playing MO you need to leverage everything available to you.
     
  9. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Its not really like anything described is an issue specific to MO though. Its all more a product of herod being very new to the game
     
    Guardian likes this.
  10. Capo.Paint

    Capo.Paint Member

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    For me, pie-slicing is the thing that makes MO difficult to play on tournaments, because I don't know my enemies point of view on this topic and don't want to discuss such things during the game. So layered defense can work quite good, but can be countered very easy with pie-slicing.
     
    eciu, mrstream and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Tbh I never saw people disagreeing that pie-slicing is not possible/ok.

    I have though like 2 occasions when enemy could place 2 ARO pieces in a way it was impossible to pie-slice them (he did good job in ensuring that other attack position on those AROs where they could be singled out would result in unopposed jammers from 2 ghazis).
     
  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I very rarely find a pie that can't be sliced in half a second using a line laser. But to get off of that topic, I've been jamming MO lately as we have a largely combat orientated event with Spec Ops coming up where MO looks like it can work. Been wondering what peoples preferences for link teams are.

    I've been trying the "Teutonic" core, running the NCO Spitfire Teuton, a pair of DA Magisters, Spec Ops and a Santiago Killer Hacker or Spitfire. Have found going to effectively 11 orders in a LI list is a really big deal. I take the Hospitaller HMG in a Haris with it, as the Teuton link lacks an HMG of its own, and it seems to be working so far.
     
  13. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    This is definitely how I enjoy running MO these days. Too many people sleep on the Teuton NCO link. Out of curiosity, what spec Ops loadout are you bringing? I've heard that bringing the Jammer in a link is pretty brutal due to sixth sense.
     
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  14. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    It's not finalized (early days, just a few practice games so far), but Jammer, Drop Bears, Minelayer, D-Charges (we have Loot & Sab on the roster).

    Then the final choice is currently engineer or veteran. Engineer is great for de-hunting people in hunting party and useful overall for an HI link. But my friend showed me how absurd it can be if you anti-meta with veteran jammers against their non-veteran jammers by practically brick walling my entire HI link with it. Since we are running Loot & Sab, Powerpack (both area defense missions) and hunting party I expect it to be jammer central around here so this suggestion makes sense.

    Yes the jammer is insanely powerful. WIP 16, burst two and SSl2 makes it a flat out "don't go there" zone and gives the squad a really powerful alternative form of attack on the few occasions that a pile of armoured dudes can't just "attack". Hugely questionable design decision imo

    The thing I'm stuck on atm regarding the Teutons is the lack of an HMG. If we're going first we telegraph the attack with the Teutons, so theres going to be nasty long range ARO in their way. Even a pesky flash pulse for 8 or even 3 points can be a PITA if our longest range weapon is a spitfire.

    So I find myself committing to a Teuton link and a Hospitaller Haris just to get an HMG that doesn't derp out in turn two. That severely constrains the design space in the list. Wondering if a TR bot with supportware or the TO sniper can do the job. Has anyone here had success with an HMG-less MO or running one of our non-Hospitaller options for this job?
     
    #374 WiT?, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
  15. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    I've used the Seraph a lot. Played the HMG in four out of five games during a satellite tournament and it behaved very well. I know that @daboarder used the Sierras a lot with good outcomes too, so I would say that they are all good, provided you know how to play them. The Seraph is really a trump card for me as it can do a lot of things on its own but playing this TAG is still not the same as playing a Tikbalang or a Squalo Serie TAG.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    yeah, MO doesnt lack for effective HMG platforms unless you are limiting yourself to preconceptions.

    It might not have a lot of style of HMG platforms, but its got the ones it needs. Cheap and cheerful reactive Sierra, Mid range price but flexible Hospitaller, and the more expensive but seriously threatening Seraph/Tikbalang.

    But even with that, given access to TO MSRs and TO FO Combis, I dont even think id say HMG fear is warranted. If you are playing right it should be more than possible for the spitfires to do the job of your high Burst primary piece, you just need to think about what your doing as opposed to sticking the mandollies on the table and expecting dice to carry you through.
     
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  17. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Its a bit harder than that, because the table and deployment order don't always let you "play it right" with a spitfire. A spitfire isn't going to get the job done if a strong reactive piece appears with good lines of fire and distance advantage along the approach path. And on many boards you are forced to telegraph the rough direction and nature of your attack, meaning that if these pieces exist they will likely be covering that approach.

    Where possible you use the terrain to negate that disadvantage, or failing that, smoke or other tricks that we largely don't get. But with many of the event tables I play on, options are not something that the table gives us - sucks but thats how it is. I'd rather prepare for the worst and have a better sweeping platform than a Spitfire.

    I've been tinkering with the Sierra after I remembered they get AVA2. Reaction bots scale well as you get your value from hackers and engineers, so I'm trying a list with the Teuton squad and two TR bots with a machinist and hacker (or HD on the spec ops). You can even run a Teuton team and a Tikbalang if your happy for that to be pretty much everything you get.
     
  18. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    If you need a good HMG and something to block LoF, the Seraph is good at this job. S7 is really helping in the job of blocking LoF and it will rarely get killed by the first ARO it suffers. Bring a Machinist along to repair it and use this fast moving BS15 platform to get rid of those pesky ARO pieces.