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[MILITARY ORDERS TACTICS] Quo Peregrinatur Grex Pastor Secum ["300pts Box" WiP 06/04/19]

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I think hoping the season brings some change to them is pure wish listing at this point. And even if it does it would be after interplanetario next year.

    Having a unit be shit on and handicap a sectorial for an entire year is beyond bad.
     
    Elessar likes this.
  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Hey it's not that they (or MO) is new to that ;P
     
  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    i guess that's true, I dont have to be happy about it
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I will put here a copy paste of my post from MO-Update thread. It will also serve me as a base of update to a main threads of MO


    Ok. Code is in pipeline, herbal tee is on table lets take this bull by the horns!

    Secure the lose objects, fasten the seatbelts this is going to be a wild long run!

    1. Butcher's bills (what did we lost)
      Lets start with what MO actually lost. Going through limitations first might allows us to better utilise things which we got.
      • FUSILIERS: So Fusiliers are no more in MO. For many it was expected and appriciated change as they deemed Fusilier "unfit" in MO themed lists, due to them being "just some complete secular mooks from PanO military complex". While this is very true in the fluff nature, there are quite big gameplay repercussions for MO.

        As it was said MO just lost their cheapest reliable order monkey, resulting that on average MO lists will have a 1 order less (3x 10 pts vs 3x 13 pts). While you usually didn't make CORE of Fusiliers due to their low AVA (3), and fusilier didn't have particularly special/unique equipment they fulfilled other obligatory role in MO.

        They were one of 2 reliable Lt options for MO (Joan being 2nd ;P). For 38 pts you could unlock proper list with presence of Lt, hacking device and "shell LT" with 2nd body which looked "just like LT" to enemy.

        Now you have to pay 47 pts to have 3 orders, hacking device and you still didn't fulfilled the requirement for Lt! Thats quite a big deal while creating lists for MO.

      • Hospitaller+Mag link: Well known and like Hospitaller+Mag link is no more. Instead of uplifting other choices to make the compete with this link, CB decided to nuke this link all together. Quite strange and sudden decision, considering the fact that new Magister Knighs were painted officially in Hospitallers colors and this update breaks their links ^^ (mean people would say that everyone who was supposed to buy new Magisters already did that ^^). Funny enough "old" (and dynamic) Magisters have now a better color scheme (Teutonic) more fitting to current gameplay.
      • Bipandra: <shrugs> bad Dire Foe is bad.
      • Santiago BSG: Strange and questionable decision, little of reason why this particular profile was deleted, similar thing goes for Santiago Combi. Especially considering both models are available and though they are really old, a lot of people still love them. Seeing how Magisters were resculped I would rather not want Santiagos to go the same way. Santiagos cannot now form their own CORE but that is a bit irrelevant with their new Wildcart. Their AVA was also reduced by 1 (4->3), it probably won't mean much (though you cannot form 2 DUO teams now using only Santiagos).
      • Father Knight few profiles: So apparently FK lost their BSG DUO profile, which is a net gain because they get a native DUO on all their profiles (for free).
      • Montesa: Old Montesa is gone, most unique profile being LGL (with Mechnized Deployment). We got though a complete new Montesa bikers, and other units picked up a bit of old Montesa equipment/gameplay. It seems also that Mechanized Deployment might be on chopping axe as only 2 more units in game have it (Peacemakers and some Haqq).
      • Joan's Doom Link: Surprise to see it here ? The Old link is dead, as now you always need 4 Hospitallers (or Wildcarts) to form it. Yes it does mean if one of your guys bites the dust and link is broken you cannot reform it with less than 5 members (if Joan want to be in it).


    2. What we got (reinforcments summary)
      • Tikbalang: So a "old/new" Tikbalang is in MO. New HMG option is always welcome, especially on one of the best TAGs in game. It seems that MO's MO (Modus Operandi) will be "mobility TAGs". What is disappointing is fact that MO version of Tikbalang lost mines (for DA and AP HMG), while also getting increase in price "because reasons". MO is not ASA, and cannot support Tikbalang with cheap super efficient orders, excellent&cheap defensive link, and surprisingly efficient Nagas. MO apparently was pushed hard towards "LI lists" and Tikbalang need a lot of orders to fully take advantage of his Climbing+. Order efficiency might be also a reason why he got AP HMG (to be more efficient at killing hard armor targets). DA CCW is a nice bonus for those few mission objectives with Scenery Rules.
      • Seraph:
        • Old Seraph: Whoooho FINALLY Auxbot learned how to Super-Jump like his master! Finally Seraph can use his unique skill and actually allow Auxbot to move. This is not a game changer, that's a dropped ball CB decided to finally fix (after how long 1.5 yeas ?)
        • HMG Seraph: Yet another HMG option. It gots quite a nice discount and an additional Nanopulser (for total 2). Again its nice to have new HMG in MO (sectorial of Spitfires), and SuperJump might allow it a to get some nice long range fire lanes. Its moderate price might mean that it might be vialable to run 2 Seraphs in single list (probably with Joan). Also remember it's "only" BS15 HMG without visual mods, so that it might still struggle sometimes against hard linked ARO's. His main goal of catching units which thought are safe prone of roofs is unchanged, it can do it a bit more efficient (and safe from own DZ) now.
      • New Montesa: Well never I thought I will see bikes in PanO (and especially in MO). Montesa got really hard shifted (well death of their Grand Master also helped). While old Montesa will be missed, the new fast units are very interesting. Its higly mobile 2W unit (which can always ditch bike when it starts to be problematic), good candidate for DATATRACKER. His paramedic profile is actually excellent to perform "drive by medkit". In situations when you don't use a 2nd short skill you should be freely shooting you own unconcious guys with Medkits (if you don't have doctor). It's a good way of "opportunity healing" or worst case denying your opponent easy way of scoring his Classifieds. (question if MedKit can be used during impetues phase still stand due to "Medkits (...) acs as a Non-Leathal BS Weapon")
      • Father Knight: All FK can now form native DUO (hurrey, no more "BSG+Spitifre or Specialist") you can now have a gun of your choice + specialist. He also can now join Order Sergeants links, without limitation so you can actually put even 3 FK into single OS link (and have no native OS there). Unfortunetaly it's still quite an expensive "high stats" unit, suffering from "this game is all about skills not stats" syndrome. Due to a fact which we will discuss next many of FK changes are wasted and single biggest winner is actually FK ML who can now act as a hard to shift ARO piece enjoing the support of OS full CORE (though he will still be less dangerous and more expensive than top ARO performer - Kamau MSV2 MSR). Oh and FK Lieutenant profile got FO (but it still carry damn Combi).
      • New Santiagos: Santiagos got quite extensive rework of their linkability. First their Spitfire profile got Specialist Operative (both regular and Lietenant). 2nd option is to take brand new KHD+Tinbot. This profile is actually quite lovely. On one hand MO finally got KHD (after everyone else even Tohaa got them) and Tinbot is a qood example of PanO's approach to fight (read: throw more tech at it). This makes rather "plain" Santiago KHD (avarage WIP13) into a unit which has chances of surving against other superior and predatory KHD's (Bit, Mary, half of OSS). It's quite understandable that unfortunately KHD profile loses E/M grenades for all the quipment it got (sad but completly fine). Santiagos also got quite important change of Wildcart making it possible to stick them into every link team! Suddenly all your HI guys can get -6 to being hacked (Tinbot+Firewall) ! This is also nice especially for Joan's link (bit harder to isolate/Exile them). Unfortunetaly their Wildcart makes some other options already more or less obsolete. It's hard to justify Father Knight Spitfire in OS link, when the Santiago Spitfire costs less points, less SWC, comes with a Specialist, E/M grenades and 360 visor and D-Charges (on top of DA). It's bad internal competition all again ;/ Why CB, why!?

        Oh and they got an actual discount with Spitfire profile being -1 pts while picking up DA CCW, Specialist and D-Charges.
      • New Hospitallers: Surprisingly they got cheaper (!?). Every profile got -2 pts. Why it was done is a bit beyond me, it seems the ORCs are really in sad place now (when you compare them to Hospitallers). On top of that every profile now has DA CCW (much better than AP) which will be usefull and allow them some scoring in speficic scenarios. 2nd biggest thing they had received is option to from Haris, on a nice platform of Doctor profile (Combi though). This allows actually having quite a nice option of HMG+Doctor+<something>, as with no access to Magister linking it's hard to justify their full link (oh and they got AVA5 so that means they can form their own CORE without characters). They also received an option to link a single Order Sergeant. Apparently full Hosptiallers links are still damn expensive (without Magisters), and need desperatly some cheap fillers.
      • Teutons: Did you mind I had not written "new" Teutons? Yes that's the core of their problem. Apparently CB really hate those guys ;/ They are only knights who had not received a point discount, no new equipment. Not even new (better) CCW, and they are left with AP and single option for a Combi+EXP CCW ;/ Yes they still have no Stealth, nor their Berserk make any much sense in during the game (I cannot remember from top of my head a good targets to use the Berserk+CCW on). They do indeed received "something". They got a Haris option (on Combi profile with a new Specialist profile). This profile is still much less appealing than a much better (for exact same price ) Hosptailler Haris. They also received an option for a Spitfire NCO. Problem of this profile is that it costs as much as Hospitaller HMG, making a Haris of HospHMG+Doctor+whatever much more appealing than TeutonSpecialist+Spitfire+whatever. As a solo piece, Spitfire NCO must compete with Santiago Spitfire which does provide rather broad asset of equipment and options (also specialist) for 4 pts more.
        Situation is not much better even though Tetuons got access to free linking with Magister Knights (who can count now as Teutons for fireteams). Hilariously enough it's usually better (while bit more expensive) to link Santiagos knights with Magisters (due to Wildcart of former). Not only you get better equipment (E/M, Tinbots, KHD) but also cheaper SWC weapons, DTWs, Nanopulser etc. Again internal competition strikes again and it seems that in most cases it's better to form "Teuton CORE" without any Teuton Knights ;/ (form Magisters+Santiagos as "Teuton CORE" to allow access of single Order Sergeant into link).
        Why CB, why !?
        tbh my only hope is that after reading 3rd Offensive book, Tetuons will get either squatted or go "Montesa way" of completly reworking their profiles. As they stand now there's little reason to field them (though at least they can link now....)
        Oh and Teuton Lt still has to pay 1 SWC, just for lulz Why CB, why !?
      • de Fersen: Got cheaper by 2 pts (as Hospitallers), cannot link with Order Sergeants (it was a bit ambigious at moment of 3rd offenisve release). His main weaknesses&strength are still same, though Wildcart Santiagos Tinbot might help him (but Redrum WIP13 Tinbot is better than Trinity WIP14). While Fersen+Santiago Tinbot might actually be quite good hacker, it's still quite expensive option (thought possible). While being great all rounder, he will still suffer from proliferation of strong enemy KHD options, though release of IA might make him a bit more appealing against such matchups.
      • Joan: She got option to jump into every DUO in MO. Quite possibly most usefull of such DUOs is Santiago KHD (for Tinbot and specialist). Her Doom Link though become even more fragile due no option to reform her link if there are less than 5 people (she needs exactly 4 Hospitallers to form it). This last change is really stupid and annyoing (and I bet many players will forget it). It makes it that ending turn with Link Leader marker on any of non-Joan link members is putting even bigger "kill me" banner than before. I wonder if it was made to force players to include EVO hacker in Joan Doom lists to run "TEAM PRO" (and probably forbid at same time inclusion of CoC due to pts limits).
      • New KotHS: Oh boy, this guy changed a lot (while not changing much). His previous 2 profiles got Forward Deployment Lv2 and Combi got upgraded with LGL which was dropped by Montesa. So MO still somewhat retains option to have "infiltrating" BS14 LGL (though it loses 4") but on the other hand is a bit more "survivable" due to Holoprojector. KotHS also traded a bit of PH and ARM for better CC and BTS. Getting a BS14 with surprise shot Spitfire up to 20" is actually quite good and might be a really good option as "last drop" unit if going first (even better in Vanilla PanO), quite a Rambo potential.
        The other 2 new profiles have both CoC skill (whoooohoo CoC in MO). Problem is they are both 50+ pts CoC ;/ It's a hard commitment for MO (who usually run out of points very fast). This is only make MO "LT problem" even more visible. That said he is quite a decent shooters (especially Breaker Combi 52 pts profile) and a specialist (with mighty WIP14 for PanO) making it an option as secondary hitter/specialist. He's not type of CoC who sitts somewhere on top of the roof hoping noone will ever bother coming for him. This "aggressive" characteristic can be seen through whole 3rd Offensive update in MO.
        In general FD2 Spitfire get an option to be quite vialable 1st turn Rambo, while CoC got Breaker Combi meaking it at least hard hitting againist most targets (at least you can try to grief few TAK units untill you eat this T2 MMR shots).
      • Black Friar: So MR BF got option to link with OS. It's a good thing, it always makes me wonder why "anti-surprise" unit can easily got surprise attacked by camo's or through white noise ;P It makes it quite nice and hard hitting unit (while linked), and gives option for some defence to OS links (drop bears). Also discovering Impersonators on 19s is good. While linked he actually might have some use to kill MSV ARO units, using +1B and +3BS. He also makes throwing Konstantinos in OS links questionable due to a fact that in many cases MR is better gun than a horrid combination of Combi+Assault Pistol Konstantinos has (though they are bit different in temrs Konstantinos can exploit non-MSV opponents, and BF counters MSV units).
        Big loser in this update is MSR Black Friar. He cannot link with OS. Why CB, why !? It's really silly. He is not Kamau MSV2, and even IA has linkable HAIDAO (funny enough it's Wildcart), with same BS13 and even 2nd wound.
        It really is strange. I think that MSR BF should get something just to make him anywhat desire-able, giving him SS2 could be actually usefull and further differ him from Nisse in Vanilla PanO (also making him probably much more expensive as SS2 is damn expensive skill, yet again showing that Mimetism is usually superior skill).
      • Machinist: Jokes on you, MO is only PanO sectorial which hadn't got special variation of Machinist ;P All you can enjoy is special name for him xD
      • Order Sergeants: They hadn't receive any new equipment but now can link with other units. It's quite possible to make "Order Sergeant CORE" without any actual Order Sergeants (Santiagos+Father Knights + Black Friar). Big losers are "Specialist Order Sergeants", who still cannot link. It's understandable for TO guys or guys with Auxbot, but why (overcosted) MSV2 Spitfire and an actual OS Hacker cannot link is beyond me. Why CB, why !? (you see a theme?:P)
        Single OS can also jump into Teuton or Hospitaller core, to make it less expensive, more vulnerable, and give some cheap long range weapon (HRL).
      • Magisters Knights: Count now as a Tetuon Knights for fireteam purposes. Funny enough that makes their own CORE completly obsolete xD CB failed at their rules. (also they can now link without any senior knights)
      • Dart: One of the best skirmishers in game joined MO. So if someone thought CB are being "purist" by removing Fusiliers he can be no longer deluge about it as while Dart is very strong unit, she doesn't exactly fit MO (fluff wise).
        While good she is also quite order thirsty, which might be a big problem in a "new MO" which will probably mostly run LI lists.



    3. Big losers (units not touched)
      • Crusaders: well at least lower their overcosted ARM and make cheaper, please CB ?
      • Black Friar MSR: anything for this "Nisse's worse brother" ?
      • Konstantinos: still heavily overpriced for what he does :( (can a combination of Combi+Assault Pistol just die ?)


    4. New weaknesses (yes)

      So MO players do have to learn to build complete new lists. Simple fact of removing Fusiliers means that the old approach "take 3, maybe a hacker too and start building rest of list" cornerstone is gone. Gone is also the old Hospitaller+Mag link which was really quite powerful (but I wouldn't called it OP), making it that other factions HI links are arguably better than a new MO (for example Rriot Girls or Hollow Men, IA probably short to follow).

      I think that it's time to address the elephant in the room, the new situation of MO's Lt. This is again an offset of Fusilier removal made me realise that since my time in MO I've ever used only 2 Lt options: said Fusiliers and Joan. There was little of sense of running different LT. All MO LT are HI now, no exceptions. Cheapest LT option for MO goes for 34 pts 1 SWC (sic!) Teuton or 35 pts 0 SWC Hospitaller. This with a combination of removal of Fusiliers means MO had been "hard shifted" to LI lists (as you now have something like 4 orders less). Additionally MO used to run all (or at least most) of their HI in a link rushing towards the midfield and enemy. What it means right now that your Lt will probably end up in most dangerous place - enemy half of table. Now if you want to keep your LT "semi safe" is to invest and "waste" ~35 pts and kept him in DZ (but once link departures there won't be many other people to cover him) or put him in one of the advancing links and really live on blade's edge (it's not exactly hard to kill particular HI guy, even in 5 man link).
      Now new KotHS CoC comes to the picture. Once you have invested at least 35 pts you can now invest at least other 52 pts to have a CoC on field. This means your Santiago Lt Spitfire won't result in obvious 1st turn LoL. But that means you just invested 95 pts in your LT..... Yes you have 2 strong units but both of which are really easy to read in terms of "who is LT now". I understand that someone thought that "now as MO got few nice things it needs limitations" but the MO LT situation was resolved rather "heavy handed".
      Either you shove your HI LT somewhere deep in DZ (and "waste points"), or you go with aggressive one and pay an additional tax of 52 pts of CoC (who can achieve quite a lot on his own, but might result in 3rd turn LoL).
      Some might point that MO is now similar to Onyx in the topic of limited Lt options but mind that Onyx can take Lt for as cheap as 16 pts, and they have an option (though expensive) for a hefty price. All MO LTs are hackable, making a games against Nomads prone to pitcher+Isolation griefing.
      (also playing against Speculo just became much more difficult)
      Identitity of MO LT will be that easy it could be as well Open Information.

      2nd big topic is a power of fireteams in MO. Joans Doom Link can now take a KotHS CoC which can lessen a bit biggest problem of those lists (fact that killing/isolating Joan would usually throw those lists into heavy dissaray), while also sporting a bit better hacking defence (Santiago KHD+Tinbot).
      Hosptialler+Mag are unfortunetaly dead, and neither the Santiago nor Teutons fireteams "in vacuum" can even match their previous performance. You lack HMG to leave your DZ on your own, and either Specialists does not provide such great robustness and resiliance to a link like Hospitaller Doctor.
      Important to mention though is you can make Teuton/Santiago/Magister core and support it with HMG+Doctor+HRL Haris. While not being as "efficient" in removing long range ARO's, HMG Haris might be enough to allow CORE link to advance and wreck havoc. Main downside of this list is fact that's yet another LI list.

      While there was a lot changed in MO in this update, the sectorial already suffers from some internal struggle, main points being:
      Spitifre Santiago is almost always better than FK Spitfire
      Santiago KHD is almost always better than FK specialist
      Santiago usually do better than any Teuton profile
      Black Friar might invalidate linkable Konstantinos


    5. New strengths(maybe), new opportunietes (yes)


      Ok, so what good had 3rd Offensive brought to MO ?

      A lot of things are now "technical".

      Technically you can run now double TAG list (though you will get murdered and put into the LoL quite fast).

      Having a Haris option (in 2 flavors) is actually good, your OS link might be supported by short range Haris (Teuton+Magisters for example) or Hospitaller one.

      You can use a lonely Order Sergeants (thought not against anyone with "Specialist" in name Why CB, why !?) to strengthen your links once casualties are inflicted (use OS to increase number of link members).

      Santiago KHD+Tinbot is really a nice thing (especially with Wildcart).

      Option to link Black Friar with OS is nice. I really start to value BF strongly, it just that previously it was a bit hard to fit him into list (now he can get "13 pts discount" acting as a body for OS link).

      There are now reasons to field KotHS (if not it's obligatory for the few of the lists).

      While not revolutionary I cannot stress enough that Seraph's Auxbot do not act as a anchor for his bigger buddy (this is only strengthen by a fact I really like how I've painted my Seraph).

      Father Knight ML is a big winner, as previously there was absolutely no reason to take him (even over Teuton, and this is saying). Now as he can link with OS, he posses an ARO which cannot be "just ignored" and might be really frustrating to shift (as straightforward ARO killers like Specnaz might have some troubles to actually inflict wound on FK). Rest of FK loses hard while competing with Santiagos (or struggle at best).

      You can now play with 3 Joans on table and actually made a list which somewhat makes sense :P

      MO now has at least one gun which feel "technologicly superior" and makes TAK at least a bit uncomfortable (Breaker Combi). In general every MO HI gaining a non-SWC weapon which is not Combi is a glorious thing.


    6. Closing words

      "-Difficulty?

      -Hell Mode, please."


      In summary I think I would agree with @Teslarod that MO had downgraded rather heavily in "powerplay". LI lists are just still not good enough against "broad lists" (even OSS can do semi reliably ~16 order lists). Lack of Hosp+Mag link will be missed. I also don't think that MO got more efficient at executing plans (and people) so that LI lists can be considered "strong". MO will drop in popularity for most of tournaments (that I'm sure). LI in MO will probably be also much weaker than IA, due to a fact that MO won't have such number of orders IA can have. This problem might be somewhat resolved with clever use of Impetues phase, but this again raises a skill floor of this sectorial, and might not always be possible to use (if your opponent is clever).

      This is not helped by the (too heavily executed) new limitation on the topic of Lts in MO.

      What MO got is a reasons (even if not many) to actually field different units. While I personally am on opinion that Hosp+Mag link shouldn't be deleted and just other units should get alternative uses I really like what was done for Black Friar, Santiago and FK (even if only for ML).

      Teutons remain a mystery and I hope that they will receive (due to fluff) a hard rework (similar to Montesa), as atm. they are still hard sell to see tables (tbh I really think they should act more as "super premium WB" with Hyperdynamics Lv2-3, and EXP CCW). Or for simplicity sake just give them those damn Eclipse Grenades, poor Guarda de Assalto won't use much of them anymore!

      Fact that Specialist OS cannot link is also something which should get removed as there is little reason for that to exist. Same goes for limitation of which Black Friar can link ;/

      Personally I would wish that de Fersen could link with OS (due to a virtue of being Father Officer) but again that's my wish :P

      It's good CB that you seen the problem and tried to differentiate MO list building. Main problem I see that it somewhat ends "half-baked" and on the same time increasing the sectorial difficulty quite heavily (you remember this article https://www.infinitythegame.com/blog/articles/item/125-hell-mode ?). Yes, imho MO is going back to it's roots ;P

      CB decided to give MO direct theme and gameplay:
      - Super aggresive use of Lt.
      - Hard shift to LI lists
      - You have to have HI in your list from now on
      - Use more Joan in your lists

      Here are some lists which I think might be interesting and good starting points for some discussion (general archetypes):
      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
      TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
      ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 31)
      JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
      TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

      6 SWC | 297 Points

      Open in Infinity Army

      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]10
      SERAPH HMG, 2 Nanopulsers / EXP CCW. (2 | 79)
      [​IMG] CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
      SERAPH Spitfire, Nanopulser + AUXBOT_3 / EXP CCW. (2 | 82)
      [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
      [​IMG] AUXBOT_3 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
      ORDER SERGEANT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
      BLACK FRIAR (Albedo, Biometric Visor L1) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser, Drop Bears / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28)
      MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
      MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

      5.5 SWC | 300 Points

      Open in Infinity Army

      Military Orders
      ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

      [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
      KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
      TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
      ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
      KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Lieutenant MULTI Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 35)
      SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)

      6 SWC | 298 Points

      Open in Infinity Army




      In general the I can thank those videos for keeping my language in check:

     
    #224 eciu, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    So I had a little time to let things sink in.

    Unfortunately nothing has changed. I just feel sorry for anyone who feels he needs to find excuses for new MO being good or even decent at anything.

    I still love my MO, so they're simply gonna disappear in a dark corner till N4, or hope for a place in Vanilla.
    Overall I'm beyond disappointed in CB, the playtesters and the design team for a job that could have hardly been handled worse.

    Jesus fucking Christ Varuna is so damn great, I'm overjoyed how they turned out (apart from Orcs). How is MO even a problem?
     
    #226 Teslarod, Dec 19, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  7. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    You guys are so weird, so pessimistic. I can still play MO the same way I always do. The Order Sergeant sectoral. lol OS link team backed up but TO camo and with a few knights.

    @eciu Honestly, I don't like your list in the battle report at all. It feels far too unfocused to do anything effectively which seems to be exactly what happened. I posted in the thread what might be good.
     
    #227 Death, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  8. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I will say that MO seems stuck to 10 order lists now. So you need to know how to play single group teams well. I can certainly see the Seraph being used often. HMG + dual nanopulsar is such a great load-out for such a cheap cost.

    The old HI pain train is harder to use but there are options. It may well mean keeping a LT in your DZ. That may seem a waste of points but a 10 order list is going to want to invest in DZ defense so its not as bad as it seems.

    What MO needs is a focused list. Taking a mishmash of units is not likely to end well. You really need every unit to have a clear role that they can do well. Lucky, unlike MAF, MO actually has a lot of flexibility thanks to the OS options. Don't overlook Auxbots for DZ defense or even camo hunting. And lets not forget TO camo. Something MAF wish they had.
     
    #228 Death, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    @Death funny part is rhat you write about need of strong fovus in MO yet it just lost its best fireteam.
     
    Elessar likes this.
  10. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    I am less cut up about that than most. I feel that this is easily as solid as the old fireteam variants:

    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (Fireteam: Haris, MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 36)
    KNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 39)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56)
    5.5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    HMG to break out of deployment, and spitfire for the close range work. Sepulchre acts as a third wave back up piece, and last turn specialist, enabling you to use the Lieutenant order if appropriate. You can swap him out for TR bots, or TOFO's and the like if you want, and fiddle around with the Fugazi too.

    Yeah that list will have problems against Camo probably, and it doesn't feel like it as a strong ARO presence, but it feels like it will be a huge punch in the face.
     
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  11. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

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    Even against camo, you don't really need visors when you are bringing knights in a link team. I played a list with the KotHS and a 5man Link last week against the most spammy Hassassins list you could imagine. All 4 of his Daylami passed their infiltration rolls, he had two Fidays in my deployment zone, etc. Sure, I spent most of my first turn dealing with them all, but his army folded like a wet piece of paper. People sometimes forget that a 5 man link is practically the same as having MSV1 in terms of dealing with Camo. (+3 WIP for discover +3 BS for killing) Just move a Magister out, discover, and then blast them away with your shotgun. If he fails to discover, rotate a bit and do it with the next one.

    MO, as a sectorial, is very different now, but I think it is for the best. There are a lot of new, viable options now that don't shoehorn you into taking the same list every time. MO was my first step into Infinity, and I'm happy where they are now. The recent games I have had with them have been fun and exciting, and I haven't even gotten to try everything yet! That HMG Seraph is calling my name for a conversion project...
     
    #231 ThananRollice, Dec 20, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  12. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

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    For transparency, this was the list I used. The mission was Engineering Deck.
    Military Orders
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]3
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    KNIGHT OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE (Chain of Command) Spitfire / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 56)
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (+1 | 50)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT (NCO) Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 39)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    ORDER SERGEANT Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    7 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    The goal was to try out as many new things as I could, so I brought the Teuton (NCO), Magister, and OS link, a Joan and Santiago KHD Duo, and the KotHS CoC.
     
  13. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I like it conceptually (except the teuton) but i feel it could very much lock you in your deployment zone
     
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  14. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

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    The idea was to use the TO OS Sniper to take out any lone ARO pieces, but the link actually performed wonderfully. The Teuton took out both Ghulam snipers that my opponent was using. It just takes some maneuvering. In this case, the infinitely-high objective room was all the cover I needed to get out of my deployment zone.
     
  15. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Yeah, i def see that the TOMSR is there to take care of TR bots and the like. My worry is the prevalence of linked snipers / missile launchers, sometimes both, and now msv2 linked snipers (at least such is the case in my area), those things dont leave the to msr on good odds. and depending on the table you will be out of ideal 24 inch engagement range for your spitfires, the armory room missions certainly mitigate this issue.
     
  16. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Depends of the table too. I know tables where HMGs an SMGs are all you want. I know others were you love this profusion of Spitfire.
     
  17. Elessar

    Elessar 80stalgic console cowboy

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    I post here 'cos this could be interesting also against Speculos, Fiday, Al Djabel and the like ...

    Lads I desperately need your precious advice on how to cope with an impending challenge. I am to play a match against JSA next week and I am 101% sure he will sport Shinobu Kitsune as the Sun rises every morning over the valleys of blossoming sakuras...

    ... apart from the obvious "brother, bring KotHS and BF/Koni with you and get on with it", what do you suggest? Alas I would like to play Jeanne but against Kitsune it seems to be tantamount to suicide, and for Milites Christi is stil a sin :joy:

    Linked Lt shrugs off the SA MOD (unlinked is almost sure death), yet odds are sensibly staked against La Pulcelle d'Orléans in the duel.

    Active Player
    41.85% Oniwaban Shinobu Kitsune inflicts 1 or more wounds on Joan of Arc (Dead)
    Failures
    28.23% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    29.92% Joan of Arc inflicts 1 or more wounds on Oniwaban Shinobu Kitsune (Unconscious)

    and even if JSA fails to get first round alpha strike or superior infiltration or first CC, Shinobu will be a lingering danger like a dangling sword of Damocles. Plus with smoke she can tear every firetam into shreds with ease.

    What do you suggest against this actual ONI? Generally speaking how MO should engage JSA?
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Only vialable and troll build is to bring only knights and actually make Santiago a LT and also bring Joan (non-Lt), but for this to work you need all knights with MA (courage) otherwise it will flop.

    Bring Pathfinder for sensor, and KotHS as CoC as I dont think you can even prevent Kitsune from getting your Lt (you can only hope she won't crit and you pass ARM). Bringing secondary dude for double nanopulser/dtw might be good (2nd Santiago or Black Friar).

    Welcome to new improved MO ^^ (where you play Lt as an open info ^^ )





    Ok: third option (not-serious) is to bring Joan+ 2 more KotHS and just deploy 7 Joans on table hoping he will pick up wrong one.
     
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  19. Elessar

    Elessar 80stalgic console cowboy

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    It's where more or less I am, indeed there's no frigging chance to avoid being fragged by Shinobu, hate to say so but she eventually will be traded at a gain by the JSA player. You are right, CB game design is sorely lacking here, I don't even imagine what would be before without CoC - this kind of auto-lose/auto-win situation smacks of warmahordes meh... :expressionless:)
     
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  20. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Can’t you just bring a couple black friars along with a sensor to discover then shoot until dead? Doesn’t seem that hard ...
     
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