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Military Orders Rework?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Palomides, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Lets not have personal attacks in the discussion.
     
  2. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    At this point I find it hard to play vanilla without her. She might be a mediocre players crutch, but she gives so much and asks so little.
     
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I'd argue that she is no crutch, but would also disagree that she is necessary for Vanilla.

    She's a viable option, and certainly offers a lot in Vanilla (where the order efficiency she adds is a huge boon), but can easily get squeezed out by other options. This is especially true in objective focused missions, where she represents a lot of non-scoring points.
     
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  4. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    I might phrase it differently to see if I can explain my experience better. I'm a less accomplished player than yourself, and feel I've run myself into a strategic cul de sac in vanilla by putting Joan in every list. Like, it feels very easy to see all her bonuses as Gimmes, and the 57pt package of her and her two best mates is always a solid start to a list when I'm not in the right frame of mind for critical thinking.

    My challenge (after this tournament I'm prepping for) it to cut my usage of her down, and see what some of the more interesting skew lists I can make are with those extra points.
     
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Fair enough.

    I have certainly seen some players (and not just new ones) get addicted to that +1 SWC.

    But I've not used Joan yet this year of playing Vanilla PanOceania, and I'm yet to really regret that choice.
     
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  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    For me it's less the +1SWC and more the 2 additional regular orders for 8pts (Warcor and TechBee).
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    7 SWC is nice to have, but a properly balanced Vanilla list outside of LI has a hard time getting anywhere close to that.
    Taking into consideration you'll usually run a Joan Vanilla List with a Swiss or some sort of TAG because.... that's the main reason to run Vanilla.
    If you're aiming for 1.5 Combat groups it can be tricky to spend all those SWC. 2 SWC for some sort of heavy hitter, 1 for a pair of Regular Minelayers, 1.5 for something along the Lines of Nisse/Hexa SWC weapon and maybe another 1 for a Bulleteer or TOFOOS. The only Hacker I ever see or would take myself in Vanilla lists is the Hexa KHD. EVO is useful in theory but costs you about 2 Orders to run. A Hexa KHD is mutually exclusive with the Sniper and exactly the same price as the Infiltrating, unhackable TOFOOS with Mines, but often wins in non TAG lists to unlock REMs.
    Revisiting PanO Vanilla this year was interesting and I've come around on Joan V2 as that backfield Spitfire is very handy to have around to gun down stuff close to your DZ and gives you an accessible secondary backup that's hard to fit into a list without compromising a functioning Order Pool.
    Overall the extra SWC are mostly useful for LI and a trap outside of that.

    For MO it's more of the same, although running double Magister MLs + Hospitaler HMG + Fusilier Hacker makes for an entertaining game.
    For some reason or another I simply found the Panzerfaust Magisters more cost effective so I'm not the biggest fan, but it sure is annoying to chew through 2 Sixth Sense MLs with 2W that can Dodge on 17s.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest for direct action missions I can do 7 SWC multi combat group lists without trying too hard at all.


    [​IMG] PanOceania
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    [​IMG] MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    [​IMG] PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] NISSE MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] SWISS GUARD HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 68)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] BULLETEER Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 23)
    [​IMG] SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    7 SWC | 300 Points
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    14 Orders, only hackable stuff but no KHD, 3 DZ bound Specialists, that would be pretty much exactly the kind of trap I'm talking about.
     
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  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Well, I certainly disagree with anyone who thinks that running our combat remotes but not a Fusilier Hacker with them is a great idea.

    But generally speaking @Teslarod is on the money, the extra SWC often ends up being a trap.
     
  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I've never feeled that this SWC was that needed (it's not bad), but some of the lists do hit 6.5 SWC so there are some narrow uses for it, for sure ;)
     
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  12. BarbeChenue

    BarbeChenue Well-Known Member

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    Trying to make this Tikbalangs list work with a full Core Hospitalier link... not really succeeding... Any help? I'm trying to find a way to somehow replicate my Seraph + Core link of Hospitalier & Magister Knights...


    Code:
                                        Min     Max     SWC
                                   293     300      1
     1 Tikbalangs                   85      85      2    HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines
     2 Joan of Arc DA/AP CCW        49      50     -1    Multirifle, Nanopulser
     3 Doctor Combi/Multirifle      35      39      0    -- / Pistol, DA CCW
     4 Wildcard Santiago Killer H   38      38      0    Combi, Nanopulser, D-Charges + TinBot A / DA CCW
     5 Hospitalier Boarding/Combi   31      32      0    -- / Pistol, DA CCW
     6 Hospitalier Boarding/Combi   31      32      0    -- / Pistol, DA CCW
     7 Warcor                       3       3       0    Flash Pulse
     8 Tech-Bee                     5       5       0    Flash Pulse
     9 Fugazi Dronbot/Mulebot       8       8       0    Flash Pulse
    10 Mulebot                      8       8       0    -- / Electric Pulse
     
  13. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Magisters are listed as having core link in the fire team list we saw. So you can make a core link and wild card a santiago, then have plenty of room for tik and support.

    Should be pretty similar in cost to hospitaller+ magisters
     
  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Magisters are really good as a static link that fuels a heavy-hitting HMG. The whole team can ARO with missiles and panzerfausts, isn't going to die to just casual backline hunting, and can take over if your primary hitter dies. That's N2 style, before mixed links, when Core Magisters or Haramaki anchoring a 10-order list was a pretty common sight.
     
    #434 barakiel, Nov 12, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  15. BarbeChenue

    BarbeChenue Well-Known Member

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    I'll definitely miss the Hospitalier doctor, plus having a HMG Hospitalier in there really helped get a good long range threat. But we'll have to see what will happen. A killer hacker or spitfire Santiago (or one of each) might be a worthy alternative...
     
  16. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    From Spanish podcast:

    Tikbalangs are now named Tikbalangs of Montesa. Probably lose mines and gain AP HMG and DA CCW

    Magistral Knights count as Teutons for fireteam composition.

    Santiago Knights get Wildcard

    Joan can be part of any Fireteam Duo in the sectorial

    Special Fireteam: Crusade Fireteam: Joan + any number of Hospitalier Knights (Santiagos and De Fersen can join the fireteam. I supose only Core)

    One Order Sergeant can get into any Teuton or Hospitalier fireteam core or Haris, EXCEPT Crusade Fireteam

    1 Albedo Black Friar can get into a Order Sergeants fireteam Core

    Up to 3 Father Knights can be part of a Order Sergeants Fireteam Core
     
    #436 fari, Nov 12, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
    Ixidro, Zinho, Stiopa and 3 others like this.
  17. Kuellet

    Kuellet Member
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    if this is true it will be fantastic :)
     
  18. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    It is. They extract the info from the book CB sent to the podcast. Im gonna edit the original with some changes they puntualized to me
     
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  19. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
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    Tiks losing mines is a bit lackluster however.
     
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Gotta admit that the AP HMG upgrade single handedly fixes any gripes I had about Tikbalangs.
    Love the model, love the C+, love the utility. Fatality helped, but TAG damage output can be a bit of a downer relative to their price sometimes. TAGs don't exactly win any prizes for being lethal relatively to their point cost.

    However FAT1 and AP together often results in 2+ points more difficult ARM saves. While that's 'only 10%' flat, it's quite the substantial increase against a ARM2+ target, especially with Cover.
    Effective increase over a basic HMG disregarding Crits:
    HMG vs ARM2 65%
    FAT1 HMG vs ARM2 70% -> ~8% increase
    FAT1 AP HMG vs ARM2 75% -> ~16% increase

    HMG vs ARM2 in Cover 50%
    FAT1 HMG vs ARM2 in Cover 55% -> 10% increase
    FAT1 AP HMG vs ARM2 in Cover 60% -> 20% increase


    HMG vs ARM4 55%
    FAT1 HMG vs ARM4 60% -> ~9% increase
    FAT1 AP HMG vs ARM4 70% -> ~27% increase

    HMG vs ARM4 in Cover 40%
    FAT1 HMG vs ARM4 in Cover 45% -> 12.5% increase
    FAT1 AP HMG vs ARM4 in Cover 55% -> 37.5% increase

    That's a rather big argument for the AP HMG Tik even next to a Core Linked BS14 HMG.