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Military Orders Rework?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Palomides, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I'd actually want to route this conversation back to MO units, the Teuton specifically.

    It will now have a haris, core and special. There are hints the stats arent going to change, but we will see new profiles. What can we possibly get to make a troop which currently consists of 3 combi rifle profiles and a single spitfire profile, fit well into a core link.

    I could see the spitfire in a magister haris perhaps. But all the other profiles are exceedingly mediocre, and dont fit anywhere another knight wont do its job better.

    I think this has all been covered before, but i'd like to see more close quarters weaponry, specially now that santiagos have stepped away from that role. So templates, BSG, smgs, perhaps assault pistols , things that would drive cost down ( to compete with the now massively cheap hospitallers ), hell maybe even a chest mine (i wouldnt like it from fluff perspective but it is mechanically very good) to have it deal with warbands, or try to win f2f roles when berserk is inadvisable.

    As it stands teutons are undeniably our worst knight, lack of stealth and very mediocre statline is relegating them to the shelf, so what can we see to bring them out as a viable option?
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    That's actually some really good insight. Santiago stepping down from "totally CQB", might unlock good and interesting niche for Teutons. I wonder if we will see Eclipse on them, in such case they could just make a core with Magisters, advance towards enemy DZ and murder everything not located on high roofs (preferably in CC).

    Or we could see NBW on them, bundled with Berserk ?

    Heavy Shotguns also seems possible...
     
  3. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    NEVER!

    You can't make me stop wanting MO to be a NA2!

    Honestly, I feel like it would open up both MO and PanO to a more interesting design direction. That's why I advocate for it.
     
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  4. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Plastic TAGs would be a very cool idea. I think metal starts to have issues at about the size the S7 TAGs are currently at, thought CB does a good job with most of their models in this size. However, I'm not sure the sales are there, I could be wrong, but plastic is a huge investment. It also tends to drop some detail, not sure it matters that much for the PanO TAGs, which don't have a lot of fine detail to begin with.

    Currently they have the only EXP CCW (outside of Joan), and Berzerk. The link can get them down field, add extra B in CC. A BSG profile would be a nice addition, but just making them special is a strong improvement. A template weapon, like a flame thrower would also be pretty cool. Add in a couple of point price drop, and I think they're golden.
     
  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    The right Fireteam options for Teutons, coupled with (I hope) good Fireteam options for things like that FK "Special" would go a long way to helping them.
     
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  6. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Guys please I know you really like real life political discussions and the jabs and the insults and the ideological sparring, but this is not the thread for it take it to the off topic and leave the thread to those discussing the thread.
     
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  7. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    the problem is joan is a lot better at using that exp ccw than they are, sure she is around 12-15 points(comparing spitfire profile) more expensive. but that adds 2 cc, 1bs, ma3 , 6-2 movement and nwi, multi terrain, kinematica, a nanopulser.

    the teuton hits a cost that is unlikely to want him to use berserk, because anything he wants to trade for, he either has a hard time killing, or is super similar in cost. this is why i think domaru are great berserk HI platform, you could even trade em for most AD troopers and be at least even in cost.

    teutons in a link also bring vulnerability to hacking other knights dont have, and their cc is not particularly good enough to want to engage in cc without having to default to berserk. if they went up to natural cc 23, i think they hit a point were id consider it. if they had nbw that would resolve a lot of my complaints as well.
     
  8. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    So back on topic, info from the spanish thread:

    @HellLois see things that @HellLois is saying on Telegram:

    - Dominico Biométrico links with Sergeants
    - Hospitalarios no longer link with
    Magisterial
    - Teutons Haris with masgistrals
    - Seraph's profile is retouched.
    - Profile Santiago changes.
    - also hints that Knight Papis link with the kids

    I don't know what that means the Father Knight can link with. Who are the kids suppose to be? Magisters?

    Regardless, Black Friar w/ MR in a Sergeant link gives MO another good long range weapon option. Teutons linked with masgisters seems to make sense but Hospitalers losing said link certainly sucks. It means a full Hospitaler link will be expensive even with their slight points reduction.

    Seraph profile being retouched is interesting, I sure hope this means the auxbox finally learned to super jump or the the Tik is going to replace the Seraph as the TAG of choice for MO.
     
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  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    I would guess Order Sergeants are the "kids"... hmmm... that opens up possibilities...
     
  10. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    That makes sense and is an interesting choice. I'm quite happy to have a Father Knight link option. Its a decent way to put a father knight LT into your lists.

    If I am correct about how the special link options work, you could use something like this:

    1x Father Knight LT
    1x multi sniper Black Friar
    1x Santiago KHD
    2x order sargeant paramedics.
     
    #270 Death, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I mean magisters have core next to them now, and santiagos have wild card. so even if no hospitaller + magister link anymore (which blows but ok) the santiago is still a better choice to jam into the magister than teuton is.
     
  12. Paperclip

    Paperclip Member

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    probably wildcard but only with knights
     
  13. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe they can link with the other knights?
     
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  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Could be... I'm just thinking of the phrase "kids", and that doesn't (to me) suggest other ordained knights, but rather the "flock". Can be argued either way, though... we'll just have to wait and see.
     
  15. Valette

    Valette Active Member

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    Somebody else said it way at the start of the thread, but it would be great to see Teutons get Heavy Flamethrowers (preferably, or another decent DTW) and Vulcan Shotguns (preferably, or another decent shotgun). EXP CCWs all round. Maybe eclipse also, but that seems too much for PanO.

    I'd love Teutons to be some up-close 2W high-armour, warband-style, preferably flaming, pain-dealers. Magisters on 'roids. Balance them with lack of range. Allow them to link with something.

    In general, I'd like to see some more flaming ammo in MO - get the heretic/heathen burning on. I feel like Blackfriars especially could take a leaf out of Inquisitor Mendoza's book, and turn up the heat.
     
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  16. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    the teutons will now henceforth allow only the most flamboyant of individuals into their order
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure I like the adjustment to the various orders.

    And I really don't like that playing MO might be a better all-HI list than the freaking Invincible Army!



    And the 4th Haqq sectorial, the Khanate, is Central Asian 'stans. All the SEAsian Muslim nations are in PanO, not explicitly in Haqq or even in Yu Jing. So where are those people?

    Now, I accept that Christianity is spreading rapidly among the low-caste Hindu (it's amazing what treating someone like an actual human does), which probably massively adjusted the demographics in India by the time we get to Infinity's timeline. That still leaves the Buddhists.



    I prefer going old school. In Hoc Signo Vinces!


    The big problem with plastic is that it has a steep learning curve and high start-up costs. So you'd really want to contract that out to someone who knows what the hell they are doing, but that involves a loss of control at CB's end that so far they haven't been willing to do.
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    My Jotum has always been as solid as a rock, even without pinning.
     
  19. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Move 6-2, and Kinematica doesn't matter in a Link, and the Joan LT profile has the DA CCW. Further Berzerk includes Assault, which makes up for the Mov 6-2, assuming you need the extra movement. The nano pulser is nice, but can be achieved with a Santiago Knight in the link. Not being the LT, and being 15 pts cheaper means that you can risk the Teuton in a way you cannot with Joan.

    I think most of those things would be skirmishers and other camo marker units. Those are going to be slightly less expensive, but still in the 20-30 pt range, and not be very good at CCW. Troopers with Camo or other BS mods are better attacked in CC anyway. Cheap warbands can be taken care of by other members of the link, or taken on the chin depending on what they're armed with. The Panzer Faust provides a good option for taking out other HI or TAGs at range, in a way only the Magister can provide.

    Wait, what? They're WIP13, BTS6, which makes them just as good as the Hospitallers/Fersen/Joan, and better than Santiago/Magisters/KotHS. Only the Father Knight has a higher BTS.

    CC 21 means they have +1 to the roll, and are guaranteed to succeed, unless they encounter a trooper with MA. Their lack of MA is a hindrance, but I see them as being order efficient ways to take out non-CC troopers in a way that a lot of the other Knights are not. EXP is also nice against CC only objectives like the heaters in Frostbyte.

    A bump would be nice, but not necessary with Berzerk, which reverts everything to normal rolls, and means effectively +7 or anything better than 13 is a crit. It also means any negatives from MA are not as important since they still cannot prevent the Teuton from hitting. ARM3/W2 means they're likely to survive a lot of attacks, with only DA/EXP or Mono being real concerns.

    NBW doesn't seem like it would fit the fluff. It's more for undisciplined fighters like Wulvers, 45thers, and the like.
     
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  20. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    but that's the thing you dont need to bring lt joan profile, i know it feels like a waste to not use the inspiring leadership, but mobility joan is a pretty great solo attacker.

    assault is nice skill to have, but it requires line of sight and straight movement. If a target is 6 inches around a corner, joan can go from no line of sight into b2b, whereas the teuton needs to round the corner, endure a f2f roll then assault in the following order.

    furthermore assault on cc 21 puts the teuton on mere 18s for the subsequent singular roll, and heavens forbid the target is in supressive fire, and he drop to 15s .

    Also i'd like to point out that kinematika and 6-2 movement does matter in a link, 6-2 matters less, but kinematika is always important.

    the thing about the teuton is he doesnt want to berserk against your 26 point skirmisher, because there is a very real chance that they will at minimum do 1 wound back to you, potentially more depending on their ranged weapon...or hell those wacky low cc models with funky melee options .

    teutons do not posses stealth granted by martial arts, they are currently the only linkable knight vulnerable to hacking in the active turn while moving.

    we come back to the point that the teuton is at that point where he is too expensive to want to berserk every exchange, but not good enough at cc to want to try it outside berserking.

    also berserk is more for undisciplined fighters than NBW, natural born warrior just implies an implicit or almost instinctive knowledge of close combat, this is why it cancels martial arts and other CC skills.
     
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