1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Military Orders Rework?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Palomides, Oct 14, 2018.

  1. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,922
    Likes Received:
    8,898
    The Jotum and the Dragao already share parts, the torso and legs are the same in both boxes with different heads, arms, armour plates, and gubbins.
     
    BLOODGOD, chromedog and RogueJello like this.
  2. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    986
    Likes Received:
    1,346
    But its not the chatholic church in Pano. Its SPACE CATHOLICISM based out of NeoTerra. The religion is quite different from what we got IRL.

    And we do know what happens to other religions in Pano, they are free to worship as they please. Some ethic groups have their own military traditions in Pano but its not necessary. Besides, we already have a WHOLE faction dedicated to SPACE ISLAM, so its quite unnecessary to get additional representation in Pano.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,863
    Likes Received:
    4,692
    That does nothing to disprove what I said. But I wouldn't expect you to realize that, since your general behavior is pathetically flailing arguments trying to rebut my points.


    Which doesn't talk about SEA Muslims at all...


    "Islam is an archaic and backwards religion! If people weren't prevented they'd convert to Christianity and join the FUTURE!"

    Not a good look.

    Anyway, I brought it up because @AdmiralJCJF claimed that those who wanted to see MO break off from PanO were anti-religious bigots - my point is that PanO, as currently written, could be interpreted in an extremely Islamophobic manner. So it isn't that.

    Yes, but the culture of the knightly orders is emphatically European, these aren't new New World knightly orders or anything like that.
     
    Yog.0 likes this.
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    9,566
    No kidding!


    About when I expected it.


    Yeah, I was really surprised that the Squalo and Cutter were there and not the Cutter and Tik.


    Seriously. This is actually about as big a change as I was hoping it would be!


    Does the SpacePope wear a funny hat? :innocent:


    Sure does. If it does go down, I hope the fluff is a lot better than Uprising was.


    Yeah, and roughly 1/3 of PanOs founding country populations were Muslim. Roughly another third were Hindu or Buddhist (combined), the remainder were pretty staunchly Catholic (or very predominantly churches 'in communion with' the Catholics).

    So where the hell are the non-Haqq Muslims in PanO? Where are the Hindus and Buddhists?



    Exactly.


    Dunno how much the new Squalo shares with the Jotum/Drago, but I thought that the Jotum and Drago basically had a Squalo body hiding under the extra plating. (I don't have any of those TAGs)
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  5. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    4,031
    What happened to the Muslims is mostly simple *points at Haqqislam*.

    As for the others?

    They are represented plenty, if you bother to learn the history behind the units.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________


    It'll be interesting to see what else HAS changed.

    Teutons, and Sepulcher Knights, are both going to be things to watch.
     
    RogueJello likes this.
  6. Toalpaz

    Toalpaz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    44
    Hecaton is right, Pan O as a faction would make a lot more sense without space mar- the knightly orders. Catholicism doesn't make a huge amount of sense for a neo-super capitalist religion (try protestantism which actually has ties to the industrialization of society and the rise of capitalism). The willingness to pave over the rest of the SEA nations is odd, and it would make more sense for there to be more muslims involved in Pan O as is.

    The knightly orders take up way to much design space, and they only exist to give that sci fi space marine look. They'd be well served as an NA faction that works on a tenuous leash to the Pan-O government, but there's no reason to consider them regular pan-o military rather than what seems to be a contrivance.

    It isn't religious bigotry, there's nothing bigoted by saying 'Hey, this army might not belong where it is'. And I think you threw the word around in a lazy careless way because you don't give a shit.
     
    Solar and Hecaton like this.
  7. Mikes

    Mikes Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    212
    ImImore than happy with the apparent developments. Linkable Teutons would have been enough for me. I'm wondering if I should wish for an OS Lt option and a Seraph re work. I love the Seroah and its more than done itsijob for me, but it is a light tag stats and armament on a heavy tag base.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    4,031
    Am I seriously the only one who actually read the Haqqislam background?

    Most Haqqislamites are not Arabs, they are from the rest of the Islamic world.

    What's the rest of the Islamic world?

    Well, it's largely South East Asia.

    (also the "istans" but it's arguable about which way they might have jumped in the Islamic Reformation)

    And I don't have a problem with the "it's not a great fit with hyper-capitalism" arguments, I mean they are wrong (mostly because the whole point is that it's a unified church so "it should be Protestants instead" is a pointless argument IT IS THEM AS WELL), but they aren't as bad as how a lot of these arguments come across.

    Far too much of it is thinly veiled "get your filthy religion out of my scifi".

    And, yeah:
    THIS is exactly the kind of argument I'm calling out.
     
    saint, SmaggTheSmug and CabalTrainee like this.
  9. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,923
    Likes Received:
    1,933
    Save for the fact that it’s not 100% the Catholicism of today, but rather a future Catholicism that is an amalgam of all the different Christian strains out there. Additionally, when PanO finally coalesced, several of the primary nations were very heavily Christian and Catholic, and in the world described and built, that influence has grown even more. It could be argued (rightly) that more could and should be made of the Subcontinent and Indonesia’s influence, but that doesn’t mean using the thread of the Philipines, Chile, Brasil, and Europe’s Catholicism is out of place.
     
  10. Toalpaz

    Toalpaz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    44
  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    702
    Likes Received:
    890
    M8 are you daft? Or just misinterpreting arguments on purpose.

    That wasnt an attack on islam as a backwarss religion. That was a mention on how CB has presented neo Catholicism, literally a religion designed for mass consumption.

    The type of religion that orthodox or modern day devouts would probably shun.

    But if ya want to be offended, and refuse to accept that south america and the Caribbean would have brought half a billion catholics into the fold of pano(in todays numbers who knows 100 years down) and man do they take their traditions seriously, well i dont in know what to tell you.


    And as mentioned haqq is composed mostly of non arab muslims originally.
     
  12. Palomides

    Palomides Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    307
    The discussion of neo-Catholicism in Panoceania may be best for a different thread. I know it started as a question about moving MO to NA2, but we've moved well beyond it at this point.

    Returning to the faction changes, I am a little unclear about the defining characteristics of the various knightly orders.

    Hospitallers = Knights of the Line. They are the core, defining troop of the faction and provide firepower and specialists.

    Santiagos = Secure the Objective. They seem to have lost their naval assault function (BSG seems essential for, you know, boarding actions) and now exist to provide D-Charges / cheap KHD.

    Magisters: Cheap Core? To fight and supplement the Hospitallers.

    Montesa: Cavalry! High speed flankers / objective grabbers.

    Teutons: Unknown. I'd guess some sort of assault specialist? We know they're being reworked, but I don't think we've seen how.

    Father Knight: Unknown. They have a special link, so hopefully they can help add some beef to the various knightly orders. I hope they also add CoC or some other sort skill.

    Sepulcher: Unknown. Shell game? They'll need a substantial revamp to work.

    Relegating non-Hospitallers to niche roles may be limiting from a fluff POV, but it does help tighten up the sectorial in general. I'm really curious to see if they change Order Sergeants, because right now pure HI lists seem like they might have a real place. (eat your heart out, YJ.)
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,863
    Likes Received:
    4,692
    Yes, because Turkey, Iran, and the Arab nations totally include Malaysia and Indonesia... in case you didn't notice, those are the nations/ethnicities portrayed as existing within the Haqqislamite nation.

    No, I haven't seen any fluff that talks about the Muslim residents of Southeast Asia being portrayed in the fluff. Seriously. What are the two existing sectorials for Haqqislam? Turkish and Iranian/Persian. Which one's coming? The Arab one. I don't see any SEA in there. So it seems like you're just pulling this out of your ass.

    It's not so much "get your filthy religion out of my scifi" as it is people glomming on to the space knights because of 40k, as well as a healthy dose of unironic DEUS VULT white nationalist types I've seen on the Discord groups and such.

    Again, MO is not portrayed as having Chilean members, Latin American members, or any of that - it's portrayed as basically Euro-Catholic. So referencing all these other countries is irrelevant to my criticism.

    I'm responding to @AdmiralJCJF 's argument that people who thought that MO didn't belong in PanO were guilty of antireligious bigotry, which is preposterous and self-serving on his part.
     
    #233 Hecaton, Oct 18, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2018
    Yog.0 likes this.
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    You aware that the Christian appeared in India much earlier than in many (most?) regions of Europe ?;P

    Weren't they supposed to migrate to start ?
     
    Golem2God and AdmiralJCJF like this.
  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    4,031
    Moving on from the OT discussion, I think more and more that this is a totally new Sectoral.

    Little to nothing is staying as it was, one way or another.

    I don't have one MO list I have used before that isn't changing so much it'll need retesting.
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    Nah, Doom Link stays probably the same, with an change of Fersen being kicked out for Santiago KHD, and then list saving ~22 pts for mayby an additional TOFOOS or TO MSR.

    Which makes this list even more scary (as the tinbot is yet another protection for Joan against Oblivion).

    Zomg, they just buffed the Doom Link xD
     
    Judge Dredd and Zsolt like this.
  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,044
    Likes Received:
    4,031
    But that's pretty substantial right there.

    Plus I never ran the full Death Star.
     
  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    Well it's more of a "fun build" than a reliable tournament build :P
     
    RogueJello likes this.
  19. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    691
    Sounds like someone here needs more Jesus.
     
    Golem2God and Zsolt like this.
  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,541
    Likes Received:
    4,121
    You forgot that those nationalists are also racist bigots and mysogonists.

    Nah he must realize "ad mortem festinamus, peccare desistamus".

    It's so sad that people don't put any deeper thought even when faced with some interesting stuff.