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Military Orders - going postal 3rd Offensive

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Teslarod, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    A change as in never appears outside of a fun list vs never appears outside of a fun list.
    Just because some people install McAfee after they got it for free, doesn't make it any good.

    Teutons usually not being part of their own Fireteams during listbuilding just makes it more hillarious.
     
    #41 Teslarod, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
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  2. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    I haven’t really been listbuilding with MO very much since the Third Offensive changes but from what I can tell, it’s become the Joan Sectorial. If you’re shelling out minimum 34 points for a Lieutenant, why not spend an extra 24 for a much superior model with 2 more orders and a free coordinated order? (16 for the upgrade to Joan and 8 more for Warcor+Techbee)

    The thing is, on the surface (or to players of other factions) it doesn’t look that bad. After all, all of the problems Teslarod names in the OP are very solvable. But when all present together, they become more than the sum of their parts. It becomes an army with awkward list construction, too few solutions to common problems, and extremely limited tactics once the game has started.

    I want to love the new MO. I adored old MO despite all their faults, and I want to extend that same grace to the new MO. There are so many cool new options that I feel like I’m being an ingrate when I say I don’t like it. I should be ecstatic about Tiks, HMG Seraph, new Santiago’s, cheaper Hospitallers, new Haris options, linkable Father Knights, linkable Black Friars, Biker Montesa, new Sepulchre profiles, etc. Those were my wet dreams a year ago. But they all ring hollow now for some reason.

    Maybe I just need to get off my ass and play a couple games of new MO. But first I need to find a list or two that has some legs.
     
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Also you get netto 2 SWC for free xD (in this case)
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Actually that a hilarious thing.


    When you take several options available to MO and analyze/look at them as singular "pieces" (compare them in vacuum) then:

    - You get a super ORCs, because Hospitallers not only are frikking cheaper (now like 5 pts) but also have a better BTS, they have so essential skill - stealth. Hospitallers also are not automatically dead whenever ninja or morlocks jumps them in CC. Oh and they all now sport a nice usefull DA CCW. And they actually bring a usefull specialist in their links, not a "target practice" for enemy KHDs... So again they are super, super ORCs and for cheaper!
    - Santiagos have soo much armament/equipment thrown at them that I fear they willl get few more things and they will be slowed down to 4-2 MOV. Srsly Santiago LT is specialist, 360 visor, Nanopulser, EM-Grenades, D-Charges, DA CCW, pistol, Kinematica etc. Just walking armory. And KHD + Tinbot is a nice touch (he's not super strong, yet not automaticly dead against enemy KHDs).
    - Dart. Dart is hands down one of the best if not the best skirmishers in game. Had she had specialist option she would have been broken.
    - Tikbalang. To many the best TAG in the game. Even with all downgrades he received in MO he still is a super option.
    - Joan. One of the best LT in game. A fighty LT but still great unit (for her cost).
    - Some Order Sergeants. HRL OS with Auxbot is probably one of the strongest units sub 20 pts (HRL/Assault Pistol + HFT attack in single order). (yes I know they can't compete with ghazis or Morlocks :P I'm trying to be positive here!)



    Yet MO does not function as a sectorial.

    It feels like a super old legacy software program which gets some patches every now and then (whenever there is a little breathing room in company) and internally resembles more and more some weird and horrible abomination. There is a need of a brilliant patches/hotfixes/workarounds (and they can indeed be brilliant) but the as a whole the software/sectorial seems like unusable mess.

    This resemblance to a software program also can bring a hint towards fixing this situation.
    Problem is that the solution is an ugly one.....
     
  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The problem is the framework.
    Some Individual MO troops are great, the Santiago+Magister Link is probably the best HI Link there is. But for the reasons listed in the OP it falls apart from there.
    Thanks to being forced to play a HI Lt and take OS instead of Fusiliers we're looking at a bare minimun of exactly 30 points down the drain. (HI Lt being at least 24 over Fusilier, 2 OS being 6 over the other Fusiliers). If you wanted to run an affordable HI Link and still have some other stuff to do work, you could comfortably do that with those 30 points. It's exactly the Machinist+Trauma Doc, Bulleteer, TOFOOS or expensive AD you suddenly can't fit in there anymore.

    Compared to old MO you are short 10% of your points for no good reason.
    Sure you can opt for Joan to double down on your Lt investment to have a better and mire survivable one. But running Joan turns those cheap expendable roadblocks into important Order Monkeys which means your board control gets weaker. Techber and Warcor are extremely good without Joan, with her they lose most of their purpose and just turn into Netrods you don't want exposed. The 15 extra points for Joan also cost you yet another Order and if you're running a HI Link on top, points for stuff that isn't Joan or the HI Link are getting tight.
    Insult to Injury, Joan remains much better in Vanilla, where ARO pieces are easier to fit in and you reap more benefits from Coordinated Orders oh yeah and you have a Helot on top.

    MO works if you play Limited Insertion. But that is simply not good enough for them to compete in regular play.
    MO also works with Soldiers of Fortune, cheap Orders and cheap Smoke to fuel that great HI Fireteam, nice.

    The FK+OS Core is terrible value for the points next to Regulars/Fusiliers with Orcs/Kamau/Baghs. If you really want to have a reason to play MO, Knight Links are the only thing around to attempt making up for it. But they're the only thing there while everything around them simply is a bunch of meh.
    They just can't compete on the killing fields next to Varuna, Nomads, Tohaa, Aleph and Ariadna.
     
  6. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    It's not ridiculous if you play in a competitive format. Let's not lie to ourselves. They are fun and thematic, but low tier on the power curve. Still gonna use mine, though.
     
  7. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    MO being a Limited Insertion army is nothing new. All HI based ones are going to be this. If you want to spam, Ariadna is that way.

    Seriously, there's no Fusiliers, but the Hospitallers got a bit cheaper, circa the number of points an OS is over a Fusilier. Joan was never in mixed links with Magisters before. The change is hardly anything to write home about. Magisters probably can't mix with Hospitallers due to Santiago Wildcard, as that would probably be too much of a good thing (and make De Fernsen even more obsolete). Seraph and FK got buffed, finally providing some range. Montesa, HMG Seraph and Dart make for excellent alpha strike units, something MO sorely lacked.
    I don't like all the changes (or even most of them), I would have shuffled things around differently. However BAAAWWWing about muh Hospitaller + Magisters (with extra Kamau salt) while refusing to simply relearn the sectorial is just pathetic.

    You lot sound like a 40kiddie after their flavor of the month OP unit got hit with the nerf bat.
    Maybe you should git gud (ironic coming from me I know)
     
  8. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    But mo was never fotm or top tier , this is more like someone nerfing sisters of battle on a whim.

    Also while Hmg seraph and dart can be considered alpha strike units, montesa is certainly a beta strike unit. It needs fire lanes cleared to approach.

    The solution to defersen being bad is not making other things sub par it's making defersen better.

    Maybe give the bastard a drop in points or tactical awareness.

    Git good isn't going to solve the problem because equal skill players with different tool sets will result in wins to the one with the better tool set bar awesome luck.
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Listen well my friend. You are doing this wrong and you might wanna throw the towel if that's your line of reasoning.

    old MO -> not OP, far from that, really
    nu MO -> miraculously worse
    correlation to your point? help me out here

    Flavour of the month shitty game system balancing? Yeah I'd really like to not have that for Infinity. Both ways though. Neither too strong, nor too weak.
    Just in case you're not aware I play a lot of things including Varuna and Aleph, both of which are definitely ahead of the curve if not borderline OP.
    Do I think Kamau Snipers are fair and balanced if you can stick them in Fusiliers? Hell no. Does every of my Aleph list run Achilles and Posthumans? Betcha.
    Do I play these Factions because I don't want to be inheritly screwed when playing against other strong and healthy Factions? Quite likely.
    Losing isn't fun for me, especially not since I have opponents that are a challenge.
    What's the point in half assing the tactical level of the game when you want to put up the best performance you can?

    So honestly, If there was a way to minmax MO, this thread would probably have been about MO being one dimensional.
    Unfortunately I find it quite lacking to play with 30 less points and without a self contained turn 1 Rambo Link. Getting hamstrung doesn't seem to be a requirement for anyone else. Weird enough SAA and NCA sure only got better since HSN3.

    Oh and not quite sure since when you decided to give a damn about balcancing, that's honestly news from you...
    Welcome to the dark side.
     
  10. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I cant help but feel that some tweaks to Teutons that CB absolutely refuses to do would go a long way right now to make the sectorial feel more open and less like everything is trampling over each other. Adding some dynamic weaponry like swapping the spitfire for a red fury, adding a Vulcan shotgun, mk12 or tossing in a light flame thrower + combi or hft would help them stand apart from the other knights more significantly. This is especially true if you MUST avoid eclipse smoke because PanO must look pants on head retarded when considering tactics on the battlefield. Also some gear tweaks like giving the spitfire (or the red fury that I would suggest) msv1 to have it stand apart from the Santiago and Father Knight and would make it look like an anti-shasvasti profile. I think it's pretty obvious that these are not jungle fighters. No templates, nothing to combat visibility impairments, nothing to decrease their visibility but hey, they can berzerk on the same level as a bunch of Scots who have access to smoke.
     
  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    NBw would be fantastic on them... or even just plain bloody stealth so they don't actively hinder their link partners. An engineer profile, eclipse smoke on their 39 point profile? Nobody is asking for 13 point eclipse smoke that can be attached to all our big hitters.

    There are as teslarod said many endemic problems to the sectorial that have been exacerbated with the update. Problems that by themselves aren't a big deal but together are worse than the sum of their parts.

    Order sgts. Feel very tacked on to an HI sectorial other than the fantastic tofo.

    The FK and black friar joining them is a good band aid on a sucking chest wound. The profiles should have seen recosting specially when you can compare them to securitates price.
     
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  12. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I would kill for nbw on Teutons. Seriously Koni, just PM me the name and Gutier's will be done.

    OS have a problem of being to much like their big brothers while being significantly less durable and versatile and too much like their cousins while costing more than them and still not as versatile. The BF I feel was a more potent addition as the Santiago wildcard pretty much blows every other spitfire out of the sectorial and the khd is a points and utility advantage over the FOFK (srsly give him back nimbus). This was definitely another missed opportunity to help them out at their core because in general terms most of their specialist sgt profiles are okay. Not folding the hacker in remains baffling as well as the msv spitfire. Their extra cost for 1 wip certainly arent helping win anyone over given their other problems. As is they're cheapish fireteam glue and the premium stuff is only a few points more for magisters and you get so much for it.
     
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  13. Lieutenant

    Lieutenant PanOceanic Dabbler

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    To be fair, I suppose we shouldn’t be too surprised that a conglomerate of medieval knights resurgent aren’t exactly on the cutting edge of modern warfare.
     
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  14. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness I'd accept this if the samurai weren't running around with ODD, super jump and climbing plus on the other end of the spectrum
     
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  15. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Huh? They've got a Space Knight in high tech powered armor with a little robot buddy, a nano grey goo gun, a 360 degree visor, Zero-G training, and magic keyboard that makes other people's heads explode. What more do you really need to feel like this is a high tech unit?
     
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  16. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    People act like missing 3 fusiliers is sending this sectorial straight to the dumpster. Give me a break. Also I love this whole narrative about the knights being terrible in CC. Are they top dog? No of course not but they're better than alot of other things out there. Get some games in, try out some new stuff, and deus vult on some people.
     
  17. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    "What is invincible army, and why does it get new HI tech for an HI faction based around small unit counts, while upping order count in a creative way?"

    "REEEEE STOP BEING A 40K SCRUB"

    Uhhhhh....need I say more?

    Pro/brotip: MO was never top tier, now it's lower ;)
     
  18. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    And yet Yu Jing players whined to hell and back about their HI sectorial not being made of "true" HI... Need I mention Liu Xing?

    I did not mean that MO was OP, it never was, I am aware of that. What I mean is that people complaining remind me of netlisters who rage every time their chosen netlist gets hit with the nerfbat, since they are unable to experiment and come up with their own lists.

    IMO MO wasn't even particularly nerfed. Just the Hospie link.

    Doesn't surprise me that people admit to play pretty much only the "known OP" lists here. All while balance in Infinity is so great that differences between "OP" and "subpar" units are usually marginal and get evened out once the dice hit the table and the element of surprise works wonders (e.g. "What do you mean you're fielding a Gorgos?!").
     
  19. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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  20. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth I agree that relative balance is rather tight, although it HAS been widening with salad links, full auto/fatality, linkable mimetic quasi 2-wound ap hmg units et al...

    My main beef with it is that despite the YJ whining (to be fair, every faction whines), there were a ton of creative solutions showing that CB had put effort into making HI-heavy lists more viable....which then didn't get translated to MO for...reasons.

    It's the lack of identity beyond the actual look of the (admittedly super awesome) MO minis that bugs me.

    That being said, YMMV from meta to meta depending on how much of a competitive slant people have.
     
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