Teutons are definitely a miss, but at least NCO and Specialist add something. The main argument still stands: why would I take a Teuton link (there are some fringe cases, jus few and far between), when other knights will do the same job better? Father-Knights actually work for me now. They act as a heavy lynchpin of a good, mixed fireteam.
NCO isn't free but can be useful. Problem is we don't have a Daoying LT L2 or 10 point Fusilier to leech the Order from. If you're running Joan, NCO is more than useless. Combined NCO and the cheapest Lt cost you 34+3 points, so that Order costs you at least 27 points, which is ridiculous. It's also Teuton only, which you are most likely not gonna run at all over Santiagos. For LI style lists I'd much prefer a really big Crusader/Hospitaler/Santiago Link over the "small" one with Teutons by far.
This is what a ;lot of people are missing. New MO list building results in strange compromises between 10 "slots" in LI format and actually using those damn 300 pts.... What I do mean is that sometimes you are just better taking that 2nd/3rd Santiago Spitfire because you already are at ~280pts and filled 10 order slots, and you can as well just "upgrade" whatever you can (let's be honest Santiago Spitfire is just plain upgrade to Teuton Spitfire profile).
If we could run a Tik/Seraph Lt/NCO full yolo across the table I'd think about the Sepulchure. If we could take the damn Sepulchure as Lt he would at least be the only safe option thanks to Holo1 downgrade. Why neither of those have a Lt Profile is beyond me.
This is the exact feeling I get when playing MO. That they figured out they should do something about them but the 3rd Offensive launch was too close, so they slapped some changes without the proper testing and list building and hoped they turned out good. Guess what, they didn't. For me it's hopeless. I face every match knowing beforehand that, unless my opponent makes some stupid mistakes, or unless i roll extraordinary lucky dice, I'll lose. This is my main sectorial. I played some NCA, but I keep on playing MO because maybe if I score a small streak of wins I will convince myself that they don't suck that much. But MO do suck, big time.
After reading this post, I'm not sure if I should spend anytime working on my MO, Is there any hope or should I move on to my JSA?
This post is over dramatic. Please do not abandon the minis you bought because of a few people's complaints. MO was my first sectorial too, and I have a blast playing it. I don't have any trouble playing effectively or winning games with the new rework. I'm not going to say that there aren't issues to address, but calling MO a weak sectorial is ridiculous to me.
Don't give up on MO yet. After all just as knights are driven by faith, we MO players are also driven by faith. Faith in CB realizing that this sectorial needs some polishing and some tuning. And faith that this changes will happen sooner than later. We also need faith before each game, faith when we build our lists, faith when we roll our dice. If this faith thing was a deliberate move by CB to transfer a fluff component to the table and to real life in general, they've been awesomely successful. Now seriously, yeah I lose more than I win. But I have fun playing MO, and unless playing a tournament, which my meta doesn't have, Infinity is about having fun. Right?
Honestly play both and see what you enjoy better , teslarod is speaking specifically to tournament level play, high tournament level at that. He isn't saying you won't be able to win games at your friendly local store with them or that you'll be crushed at casual play. His comment is more dont expect MO at top table of LVO, Cancon or another major tournament. On the note of Jsa vs MO, military orders was my first love in this game, but I find my jsa brings a lot more solutions to diverse problems . And due to high cc values sometimes punching something in the face is a really reliable answer
Why? They are just brutal fighters, they arent OTT anime ninjas, like JSA and the Monks from YJ, or OTT spartan/greek warriors like Aleph.
Most things are going to be bad in defense. MO's strength in CC is usually going to come from links in the active turn... Piling 2+ knights into combat. Most CC combatants are at risk when they're on the defense. No unit in the game wants to get rushed by Massacre + Jag Haris, or a pile of E/M Morlocks.
I'm curious, which sectorials/vanillas do you believe are below MO at the moment? As far as Pano goes I would solidly rate it 5th with Varuna being top dog, Acon slightly below it, NCA making a good show in 3rd with the excellent hacking capabilities, Deva LT sensor,cheap orders and AVAs and fusilier defensive fireteam is still wonderful. Vanilla is hovering right around NCA with the profile changes opening up its heavy infantry selection and the additions of Varuna improving the true Joan sectorial. MO doesn't have the LT flexibility, quality or survivability of its counterparts, it's more expensive, its technically highly versatile but its versatility is tied up in all trying to do the same thing, relies on fairly pricey LI to provide visual mods and is very restricted on its ability to strip them or deal with camo. These aspects put it in the bottom bracket for me at least. Adding my own rant to what's been said: Knights are walking stat sticks that have sunk an inordinate amount of points into CC to be scared to death of multitudes of CC specialists and are just better off shooting in nearly every situation. This aspect really raises my hackles because inspite of CB's "deep cuts" when it comes to lore, they still fall for the idea that knights were basically brutes while samurai had magical katanas. Knights did a good amount of grappling and inventive sword techniques pair with fancy footwork to defeat each other. Father knights are the absolute worst offenders of the stat stick design sinking tons of points into armor and bts and they took nimbus away for no reason which made the FO a really intriguing prospect. They're super orcs. Regular knights are saved by MA giving them courage and stealth, but the melee components are rather lacking.
I hate the weeb worship of samurais. When historically speaking it's likely an average knights superior size and equipment would have trounced an average samurai. But shooting to solve every problem is not even what bothers me, it's that stripping modifiers is hard in mo and we have few modifiers ourselves. A strelok is same effective BS as our knights in a shoot out, I know a mimetism or ODD knight is bloody unimaginative. But a solo attack piece needs modifiers in this arms race we've arrived to, that or such utility that you are willing to give up the better f2f options.
But the Montessa has mimitism! I kid, I think you are on the money here. Making the Black Friar MSR linkable would go a long way towards solving this particular issue IMO. I'm fine with MO not having linked troops with modifiers themselves if they could link some MSV beyond a combi rifle.
What do you mean "that's not a change"? They changed significantly, from being forced to be solo/coordinated only to have the ability to Core back, get Haris, get a specialist and NCO, three of which they never had before. Linking with Magisters makes the them the budget HI Link option. I agree that it's not enough. But it is a change for the better, even if it's from "absolutely terrible" to "meh".
