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Metachemistry Symbiomate

Discussion in 'Rules' started by RobertShepherd, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    If a Kiel-Saan with a symbiomate rolls the metachemistry results that increase its ARM or BTS, does that addition apply to the ARM and BTS values it has when using a symbiomate?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    No, Symbiomates replace the normal ARM/BTS values
     
  3. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    This. They replace entirely, rather than add on to.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Are you totally sure? Or more accurately, are we conceiving of Metachemistry correctly?

    Specifically, Partial Cover is a +3 MOD to ARM and BTS:

    Metachemistry is also a MOD to ARM or BTS:
    • Immediately after placing each of your troopers with MetaChemistry on the table for deployment, you may roll on the MetaChemistry Table once to determine that trooper's extra MOD or Special Skill.
     
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  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    So in short, as far as I can tell a Kiel-Saan in partial cover who has rolled +1 ARM on the metachemistry chart and has a symbiomate has an ARM of 9 (replacing the ARM value of 4 on his troop profile per the symbiomate rules), with a +1 MOD from metachemistry and a +3 MOD from partial cover.
     
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  6. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    I see reasons for both arguments, we are here in a grey zone.
    Is Metachemestry a mod who changes the value immediately or is it a mod who is applied for every roll.
    RAW I can find no reason why the arm value should be altered. RAI/fluff wise I think it should not be added to the 9 armor.
     
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  7. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    Edit: I changed my mind in further discussion.

    Metachemestry and Symbiomates are both applied during deployment. But sequence of applying matters:
    1. You deploy miniature with Metachemestry and rollfor effect. Then you apply the result (four example, +1 ARM)
    2. Then you deploy Kaeltar with Symbiomates and attach Pokemon to miniatures with Symbiont armor that is ALREADY on the table. Thus replacing its modified ARM value.
    If you change the sequence, there would be no miniature to attach Symbiomate to, so when you deploy it, you just roll for Metachemestry. You cannot put Symbiomates "on hold" while you deploy other units.
    Cover bonus is applied only during BS Attack as normal.
     
    #7 m2cat, Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  8. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    Show me the rule. It's grey and you can argue for both solutions, but there is no definite answer.
     
  9. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    What
    What rule you want? About timing?
     
  10. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    The Value of armor is not altered, cause there is no rule for that. You get a mod on your armor, nothing else.
    If I'm incorrect, show me the rule for that.
     
  11. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    Ok, from this point MetaChemistry provides either extra MOD or Skill.
    EFFECTS
    • Immediately after placing each of your troopers with MetaChemistry on the table for deployment, you may roll on the MetaChemistry Table once to determine that trooper's extra MOD or Special Skill.
    Then MCh + SM + Cover = 1 + 9 + 3 ARM roll.
    P.S. Then I'm confused with Superior Mobility because this is neither MOD, nor Skill and effectively replaces unit's MOV value with 8-4.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    SymbioMate has two effects.

    1: "replacing the ARM and BTS values of the user's Troop Profile"
    and
    2: "will perform an ARM/BTS Roll with an Attribute value of 9"

    As I see it, if you interpret MetaChemistry as adding to the ARM/BTS 9, then you have a bit of a problem because that value will go away once the SymbioMate is gone - plus you still have to take those saves with an attribute value of 9.
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I have to disagree with this.

    Metachemistry, after rolling, provides a +1 MOD to ARM (or a +6 MOD to BTS, or a variety of skills, etc).

    The symbiomate replaces the ARM or BTS values of the user's troop profile, which is reinforced in your point two by specifying the attribute value again for those rolls.

    Nobody I have seen to date suggests that a model with a symbiomate in cover would not gain the +3 MOD to ARM or BTS from partial cover. Per the wiki page to modifiers, MODs apply to relevant attributes, etc etc.

    So before a symbiomate is expended, a Kiel-Saan that has rolled +1 ARM on the metachemistry table has a base ARM of 9, and performs their ARM rolls with an attribute value of 9, with potential MODs including +3 from partial cover, and +1 from metachemistry.

    Once the symbiomate is expended, the Kiel-Saan returns to its previous Troop Profile with an ARM value of 4, and still has the Metachemistry skill and associated roll. The Kiel-Saan's ARM value will likely change again during the game when they enter inactive symbiont, but the metachemistry MOD will still be present.

    There seems to be some assumption that Metachemistry alters the base troop profile, but it does not. The skill clearly specifies that it is a MOD. You need to handwave that, or else not apply the MOD rules consistently, to reach some of the conclusions put forward so far.


    (Edited for clarity)
     
    #13 RobertShepherd, Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
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  14. m2cat

    m2cat Active Member

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    The problem is that there is no Skill named Natural Armor.
    Hence this trooper receives an extra permanent +1 ARM MOD
     
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  15. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    If you want to play a game where your opponent won’t argue with you or give you “that look”, the MetaChemistry ARM/BTS mods should only apply to the base profile, not the symbiomate values.
     
  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Especially since, again, the Symbiomate entirely replaces your ARM/BTS, and regardless of any insipid quibbling about whether Metachemistry’s a MOD to or an addition to your base ARM, it’s on the base profile, the one that’s replaced.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And then you get to the second bullet point I mentioned and your ARM value gets reset to 9 when you actually have to take the roll.

    Cover MOD is detailed in the examples of SymbioMate.
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    The MOD rules cover this. Fixed values are applied last. So you'd add whatever Metachem grants you and then replace it with ARM/BTS 9 anyway.

    Whenever a rule mentions the value of an Attribute, consider it to mean the final value, obtained after applying all MODs.
     
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  19. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    So I'm clear - prima facie you should also discount cover when determining ARM on a symbiomate model, but the example in the rule says you include cover, so our proposed resolution is that you can add cover because it's an implicit exception contained in the symbiomate rule?

    (This isn't a critique, I can work with that. This is far too small a hill to actually die on!)
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Symbiomate works on ARM/BTS in the Troop's Profile
    Metachem also modifies the Troop Profile.

    Partial Cover ARM is added to the ARM/BTS Attribute not to the Profile.
    Partial Cover should stack (mostly because examples for the rules count as rules).
     
    #20 Teslarod, Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019