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Mercs getting to be too much?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Okay this is getting rediculous! I like mercs a lot, I think some forces would suck without them but I should not be able to make an almost whole vanilla list, and a pretty good one, with them.

    Yu Jing
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    AÏDA SWANSON 2 Submachine Gun, Viral Mines / Viral Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 24)
    JÄGER Submachine Gun + E/Mitter / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    MAJOR LUNAH Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    WILD BILL Contender / 2 MULTI Pistols, Knife. (0 | 25)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    ARMAND (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser, Antipersonnel Mines / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 42)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Haqqislam
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    GHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    AÏDA SWANSON 2 Submachine Gun, Viral Mines / Viral Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 24)
    KNAUF MULTI Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 20)
    WILD BILL Contender / 2 MULTI Pistols, Knife. (0 | 25)
    MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2
    JÄGER Submachine Gun + E/Mitter / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 18)
    ARMAND (Minelayer) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser, Antipersonnel Mines / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 42)
    KAPLAN Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
    DRUZE Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Pitcher, D-Charges / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, there's a reason for mercenary "contracts" like Foreign Company to exist, and that's to make actual mercenary armies
     
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  3. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Why does it matter?
     
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  4. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    I think the idea is to throw in a little flavor, if you want it, or to fill a gap your choice faction might have left you with. I think those lists are objectively worse than what you’d typically see even a new player run as a “generic” vanilla list. Especially that Haqq list. If you really want to run mostly mercs in a vanilla faction - the option is there, sure. I don’t really see a problem with it though.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I think it’s a bit of the principle of it. Meaning some forces are loosing what it means to be them. I guess it feels like they are all becoming the same. I know it sounds stupid but it’s how I feel. The “Faction Character” is being diluted a bit. And this is all because they needed to come up with a figure they can sell at cons and give away for prizes. I can’t remember what the first one was. I want to say a Yuan Yuan. Which at the time could only be used by QK but technically a Merc. Then people got bent out of shape they couldn’t use the figure for their faction so they make it a mercenary and everyone gets it.

    I’m also conflicted because I love mercs! I don’t think I’ll ever do Vanilla YJ without a Liberto, Monstrucker or Krakot. I’d say Lunah but she’s pretty much just YJ.
     
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  6. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree with this sentiment.
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    And something that i feel MUST do is a Shanghai Noon thing by teaming up Wild Bill (Owen Wilson) and a Krakot (Jackie Chan)! I mean, it's right there! How can I not?

    Edit: It’s also a bit upsetting that there’s more Merc characters than there are Yu Jing. And two of the YJ ones are only recent. YJ 4, Mercs 6.
     
    #7 Space Ranger, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
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  8. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    For me I would prefer if mercs only fit specific roles and are not generally good to take. Liberto and krakot feel a bit to generally useful. But everyone has different preferences so dont think if needs to change
     
  9. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Now we have several fully fledged NA2 armies I think we could safely strip back generic mercs when n4 comes around next year.i think you could probably get by with just having bounty hunters, wardrivers etc as "basic" choices with ava1 for vanilla and all the others moved to a sensible home in na2 and the "soldiers of fortune" mod for ITS.
    A lot of the generic guys don't even bring any value to factions as they duplicate existing choices in a "same but worse" manner so I'd like them cleaned up
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I will note that the YJ list would make more thematic sense with a Zhanying LT.

    Way back in the day (I'm talking N1/N2), you could make your own mercenary company by choosing 3 vanilla factions to mix, and halve the AVA. AVA:Total went to AVA4, AVA1 went to a special AVA0 where you could take one AVA0 trooper for every 200 full points in your army.

    I would really like to see mercs dialed back. Most of the characters can stay in sectorials or NA2, barring specific fluff for each merc. I'd even like most of the Merc units to be limited to fluff relationships. Yuan-yuans will not work for YJ, Druze won't work for CHA (or rather, CHA will not hire Druze), etc.
     
  11. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Ah. So the problem is too many choices.
     
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  12. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Since I think its somewhat like with the punic wars, I'll repeat a post of mine :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

    "... what's really annoying me is that the "Combat"-Factions profit most from the Mercs. There are a lot tool-boxy Mercs that factions like PanO can get good use of, but they are of much lesser use in factions that have their own toolboxes, like Nomads or Haqq.

    And there are no Combat Monster-Mercs to compensate this.

    Where is the Rogue Swiss Guard? Or the Rogue Aleph-Greek-Combat-Monster with BS 15? Factions like Nomads or Haqq could get good use out of them, but there isn't one. There is not even a BS 14-one.

    So the usefullness of Mercs across factions is skewed. And the more Mercs they release, the more skewed it becomes.

    Edit: And what's also annoying me is that the Mercs even the differences between factions. If half of the list consists of Mercs it becomes pretty irrelevant if I'm playing PanO or Haqq or Aleph."

    "With Soldiers of Fortune this becomes even more apparent, but even without soldiers of Fortune I already faced some PanO-armies with half of the list consisting of Mercs."

    So yes, I think there are far too many mercs out there who are working for everyone.
     
  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    You can also make pretty decent Tohaa lists with at least 1/3 being mercs:
    Tohaa
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    JÄGER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon. (0.5 | 21)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    ARMAND (Multispectral Visor L1) MULTI Sniper, Nanopulser / 2 Breaker Pistols, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (1.5 | 45)

    3SWC | 104 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    This is the core of a absolutly decent list, muet with draal stratuscloud in front is one of the hardest to kill aro pieces in the game. Now take Mates too to make him even harder to kill xD
    If you count Aida and Greif also as mercs you can go up to 1/2 of the army being mercs and having a decent list.
     
  14. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    One might also say that some factions just have all the toys and so the mercs don't matter to them. And if Armand with a Multsniperifle and MSV is not shooty enough then maybe your faction isn't as undergunned to make up for that as you thinkg. *cough* Kriza *cough*
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    To me? Because sides being very distinctive is the entire point of variety through multiple factions. And I value that kind of variety, both on mechanical and thematic level.
     
  16. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

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    Note that most of these models were either tournament prizes or preorder bonuses for faction-unrelated products like books. They are in vanilla factions so that no matter what faction you play, you are able to field them, not for balance reasons.
     
  17. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Well, if I want someone like Armand I take a faction-specific troop, called ... Intruder.

    Of some factions miss some tools, maybe it's meant to be this way? Leveling everything with Mercs can't be the way to go. And although Kriza surely is one of the new uber-HI, still there are no Rogue BS15 - Mercs. Not even BS14. Where's the logic behind that? Are only toolboxes and close-combat characters going rogue?

    Doesn't make sense.
     
  18. LeeroyVinland

    LeeroyVinland O-12 Agent

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    I think the faction should loose access to all the mercs and only in special ITS scenarious they should be allowed to take this and this merc.
     
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  19. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    And something I forgot to add: The fact that a Merc like Armand exists is backing my argument, since he is pretty similar to an Intruder and because he is available to all Vanilla factions he is a) leveling the differences between factions and making them more similar and b) showing that the usefullness of the Mercs is skewed. Nomads wouldn't take Armand most of the time because they have Intruders but other factions would maybe. So usefullness of this unit is skewed.

    He is making a signature unit (Intruders) available to all other factions. Again I am asking: Where is the rogue signature PanO- oder Aleph-Unit, like the Swiss Guard or Achilles?

    Playing Nomads the normal Mercs (except for the auto-take Libertos) aren't of any use. I can imagine this is the same for Haqq. On the other hand other factions are benefiting from Mercs because they offer skills they don't have.
     
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  20. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    This is my problem, I love mercs! However, every time I make a Vanilla YJ list, I find myself puttig in more and more Mercs. Some plug holes that were left after Uprising (enough said). Liberto is a great cheap mid-field pain in the ass. ABH with SMG and AK is a better Zhanshi chearleader. Monstrucker is a better Mech-Engineer. The LIberto and Monstrucker are Irregular but that’s not as bad as some think. They are all probably always going to do something with that order and it’s possible to turn into a regular order if needed. Now Wild Bill moseys along with being Regular, BS13, NWI, Marksman L2, Fatality L1. Good thing he’s not a specialist or i’d take him every time.

    I don’t think they need to be necessarily taken away, but I think at the least, they should all be Irregular in Vanilla, Regular in NA2, some Sectorals, and Select Vanilla. I’m also talking about only the ones that are available to most Vanilla forces.

    Irregular in Vanilla
    Major Lunah (Regular in ISS)
    Knauf (Regular in StarCo)
    Wild Bill (Regular in USAriadna)
    Aid Swanson (Regular in Shasvastii)
    Armand (Regular in Tohaa and Spiral)
    Miranda Ashcroft (Regular in Dahshat)
     
    #20 Space Ranger, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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