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May we begin?

Discussion in 'News' started by BaronVonZorcula, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yu Jing weren't topping the charts with it, aren't doing better without it, and by replacement we need to go into a deep discussion about power curve and gear on infiltrators. Zhencha isn't a replacement on its own, but halfway there so to speak. (Hulang would be the remaining distance if it wasn't so terrible)
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that before Uprising, you always had to assume a YJ player had an Oniwaban, just like you always assumed Haqq or Combined had an Impersonator, and deployed accordingly.

    Now, though, you don't have to deploy assuming YJ has an Oniwaban. That's a huge loss of capability, and opens YJ up to a bunch of high-power threats early in the game.


    fixt.

    It certainly would have helped! Though all the 1W+NWI "Heavy Infantry" would still have been a hard sell. Maybe if the Zuyong got dropped down to 1W+NWI at the same time? (This would also have dropped the cost of Zuyong by about 3 points across the board)
     
  3. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Yeah, I think Zu Yongs should be the lighter, budget version, with Shang Ji being the real top of the line model. Haidao could be a 2W HI as well. Zhencha, Hulang, Liu Xing - all are highly mobile, makes sense they're lighter.

    I wonder what that means for MO, because I'm pretty sure we'll see this development getting there sooner or later. Magisters and Teutons strike me as the most probable targets for such makeover.
     
  4. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    And outside of vanilla, where was all of that stuff available?

    Yes, you had to assume a vanilla YJ player had those things.

    I never assumed Imperial Service had them.

    Eh. Maybe. I doubt it though. JSA was, IMO, being heralded as though it were the way the Squats got handled.
     
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to wonder whether the Oniwaban was a bit of a crutch for a faction with two perfectly good legs.

    It's removal is good for YJ. Opens design space.
     
  6. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Have a look at the new Jannisary variant - it's gone down the same path of stripping away armour (and a wound) in exchange for special equipment bonuses (mimetism and msv).
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Are you... trying to post flamebait? You know that particular line is toxic to a lot of players.
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. There are quite a few classic units that could use a similar treatment. I've mentioned Magisters and Teutons because the former were alway the lightest PanO HI, and the latter could use a makeover for years now. But there are more HIs like that.

    Regarding Oniwaban - it's obvious that YJ did lost a certain ability with its departure, and new releases aren't a replacement. The faction strenghts and capabilities shifted in another direction. So while I agree that some options are no longer available, I'd rather look at new stuff with open mind instead of trying to replicate old playstyle. Zhencha, Liu Xing, Hulang - they're not Oniwaban replacements, they're their own beasts with different things to offer. And I dare to say that both on their own and collectively they're more flexible than Oni, even if they can't provide its particular strength. And yeah, we no longer have to fear Oniwaban alpha strike when playing against YJ, but 1) we need to be wary of different things - order pool resilience, more flexibility and resilience in the middle of the table, ability to punish insufficient AD precautions more severely. All in all I think you've gained more than you've lost, even if in different places, and 2) not having Oniwaban doesn't leave you in a worse spot than 90% armies in the game, which don't have access to Oni either.

    I guess it's similar to our kvetching about PanO shortcomings, with players from other factions trying to explain to us that we do have nice things, and they'd gladly use them in their own armies. Now we're doing the same to others :P
     
  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    No? I absolutely think it's true. A lot of YJ players overly relied on the Oniwaban but they don't need it and never did, and it locked down a lot of design space because everything had to be designed with the Oniwaban also being in Vanilla YJ in mind. This is true of all troops but the almost unique capability of the Oniwaban in terms of TO Camo alpha striking in CC was something that skewed the faction. You'll note that JSA's design is notably weak on long range firepower and such because Oniwabans and such are present.

    If (a small minority of) YJ players are getting salty because these points are being raised then 1) it's a wargame, I think a change of perspective could be important and 2) that doesn't make it untrue
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You also realize that for design space to be beneficial, it has to be used. We haven't seen any of that design space left by the departure of Ninjas and Samurai used yet.

    So right now that's a design hole.

    (Oniwaban was by all evidence used frequently (20% of the lists if memory serves) but not to the point where it's a crutch you always lean on. I think the real crutch was the Ninja which was used in a majority of lists, and that one was kept. And by no means do I consider that one irreplaceable, provided it's replaced)
     
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  11. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I suppose the Hulang is a first attempt of filling said hole. It's not a complete match, but it looks like a YJ interpretation of a forward Monofilament CC killer.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To me it's much closer to a HI-ish of the Kanren. Like a Kanren desperately trying to be a Crane, dressing up in an incomplete HI suit, damaging the Holo so it becomes mimetic, and spending all waking hours sparring.

    The design space would most of all be superior infiltration and TO camo (or Impersonation). Technically the stupidly high CC skill is also part of design space void for Yu Jing, but it would be a shame to encroach on that JSA identity.
    Giving it limited camo would effectively imorove it and mimic one of the Oniwaban's aspects, though it'd require shell games where Oniwaban is just absent.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Hulangs seem pretty good? Mimetism, NWI, 2 SMGs, specialist with D-Charges, CC ability, starts up the board? That's high respectable. Especially with a monoCCW so they're a pretty terrifying threat to anything heavy. It's not doing the same thing as a Ninja but still it's doing something very well.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They're pretty damned easy to stop. Play them a few times and come back with an assessment that does not come from a check list (or at least update your check list)
     
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  15. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't play YJ or IA but I know a good profile when I see one. The Nahab is a similar troop that I've absolutely used to great effect already. I'm going to play the Hulang in Dahshat though so when I get around to it I'll let you know :)
     
  16. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Completely different story in Dashat or Vanilla YJ. You have smoke there.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So... a unit that costs two thirds the price and is not hackable and that you can choose to stick in AD if you go second and feel you need to preserve is somehow equivalent?
    That's ... stretching the comparison a bit, don't you think? I mean, it's a profile that avoids avoids 3 of the Hulang's 3 problems that makes them hard to use and easy to counter.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would argue, not completely. Smoke when not carried by the meleeing unit is not ideal because it will not necessarily be practical to stick the smoke down where it's needed so you'd have to have the smoke dispenser trailing you and this is not to mention that getting the smoke to cover and protect you during the reactive turn which is the Hulang's biggest issue (using FD2 means deploying alone and exposed).
    In Dahshat, Hulang has competition by Saito, and while that doesn't actually affect the Hulang's individual performance it does put into contrast what the two can comparatively achieve.
     
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  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    My initial reaction to seeing the Hulang profiles was, "that's an interesting attempt to make a Shikami."
     
  20. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    Coming from a purely PanO perspective, I’d field a Hulang every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Same with Zhencha, what a nasty surprise waiting under camo. Especially in Vanilla, with a proliferation of camo infiltrators and minelayers. “What’s under this camo token? Be you a squishy Guilang? A Spitfire HI? A DEP? A mine? Who the f knows?”
     
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