So you want to adhere to RAW when it suits you, but reject the absurd situation because "it doesn't make sense"? As per your interpretation of the rules Hsien should claim MA. Seriously CB, get this FAQed one way or another.
So the weight of ruling just overwhelms RAW. I mean it wouldn't be the first time so I'm fine with that I guess.
Im confused. Martial arts is a cc special skill and has a chart. You cannot get the mod by shooting a shotgun because its a cc special skill. Is this the page you are looking for: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Special_Skills
This was actually discussed already. Tl;dr: CC Special Skills require you to be "engaged in close combat" in order to work. Not "declare CC Attack". And this is where it gets problematic because game does not define what does "engaged in close combat" means. So, if you forget ruling and go by RAW you can either assume it actually means "CC Attack" that was never really mentioned so this interpretation is flawed and based on guesswork, or you assume it means "Engaged" which is also flawed because the word in the actual rules is not capitalized and probably doesn't refer to in-game terms (personal note: which shouldn't really be a thing). Formal clarification is therefore really appreciated. Unless you meant "ODDs" (which is obviously bad news for shooters), it depends on your target and positioning of everyone involved. Otherwise, primary concern is not really odds, but order expenditure (including both laying smoke and going those extra 8 or 10,5 inches) and extra AROs you'll have to deal with on the way most of the time.
I waa refering to this part specifically: Some CC Special Skills give a trooper a series of MODs and advantages that are displayed in Charts with the following elements: Attack MOD: A MOD to the CC Attribute of the user when making a CC Attack. The attack mod only applies if you are doing a cc attack.
@kinginyellow Yeah, but the point was about imposing negative mod, hence "shooting hapless targets" in title, I presume. If someone ITT claimed otherwise, well, that obviously won't work. The MA4 and burst, however... TBH when I was cracking on "CC Special Skills" rule, I assumed (for some reason) that the latter will not work either even under more lax interpretation because at no point of your movement you're both in B2B (to use MA) and able to declare BS attack. Kinda like it is with walking in B2B while covered by smoke. What I overlooked back then is that what I was comparing the situation with was specifically governed by rules about declaring skills during movement and checking LoF in that situation. CC Special Skills aren't covered by anything like that... This was one of the reasons why the "liberal" interpretation of the interaction in question was looking better in my head than it probably was.
RAW Marital Arts by itself definitely reads that the negative MOD would apply if you reached B2B and then declared a BS attack. In light of the specific wording of I-Kohl and the example though, I have to arrive at the conclusion that all MA mods are only designed to function when making a CC Attack.
That's not the way I read the RAW. To use MA, you have to be engaged To use BS attack you cannot be engaged Let's imagine you move to reach the engaged state (1st action) then declare a BS attack (2nd action). You have to declare your BS attack at a point of your movement before reaching the engaged state (as engaged state forbid BS attack) thus you cannot use MA at the point where you shoot . => in this case, RAW are clear
The wording in the Spanish version is as confusing as the English one, so don't worry about that. I think the problem here is the use of CC as state in the MA and IKHOL descriptions when it is (in fact) a short skill. And that is confusing, because there is no such CC state I understand they intended these rules to be applied when engaged but, my question is: when moving in base to base contact are you engaged? If you were you would not be able to face-shotgun the incoming Ninja (because you can't declare BS attacks when engaged)... But you can declare CC attacks to the incoming Ninjas, so you must be engaged at the end of the order to declare a CC attack. Does the MA an IKHOL descriptions say anything about engaged? No. They just mention you must be in CC (like if it was a state). So, I think this needs FAQing. Personally, I think applying MA and Ikhol when you move to engage should also be possible. Or when facing a Ninja would you say "Bah, it's wielding the boarding shotgun. Pf... No need to worry!" I'm sure s/he has certain skills from her/is training that would make her/him a fearsome opponent whatever weapon she is carrying at close quarters ;-)
Cf my previous post : you are engaged the moment you reach base contact (see wiki page of engage : "This state activates when the trooper is in base contact with an enemy trooper." not at the end of the order or anything else). This being said, when you declare a BS attack ARO after your opponent moved, you have to choose at which point of his movement you shoot. So, you can shoot the ninja before he reach base to base contact (no engaged status at this point), even 1 nano meter before (supposing he attack you from your front, if he attack your from your back after moving out of LOS : no BS attack) It does, just not directly. MA and Ikhol say you have to be in CC. The only thing in the rules that make you "be in CC" is the engaged status (first effect of engaged "Troopers in Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat (CC)."). To simplify : MA and Ikhol activate only when in CC => Only engaged status make you "be in CC" => MA and Ikhol activate only when engaged
From CC Special Skills They are only usable in Close Combat, so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them. From MA Either in an Active or Reactive Turn, a trooper must reach or be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to be able to use this Special Skill. Adding the "Reach" part of this is seems very much to me like a specific trumps general, and is super confusing if they didn't intend for you to be able to apply negative MA mods to a BS attack on the way in. I ultimately agree with the conclusion that you can't apply the mod by declaring a BS attack, I just think we need to acknowledge that the wording in these isn't helping.
Reach is confusing until you check the meaning of reach : to arrive at a place, especially after spending a longtime or a lot of effort travelling (cambridge dictionnary) Reach CC mean « be in CC after moving there » not « moving into CC ». The confusion here come from our limit as non-native english speaker, not from the wording itself
It's really very simple, you're trying to apply a CC skill to you performing a not-CC attack. BS attack isn't a CC attack. There's no special interpretive reading that you need. Martial Arts applies when you're using CC because it's a CC Special Skill. If you want to shoot someone, you're not using CC, Martial Arts doesn't apply. This isn't Equilibrium Gun Kata territory.
They're Spanish, so I think they thought as we did. Otherwise why add "reach" in that sentence? What cases does it cover with "reach" that it doesn't without it? When you move to engage you are in contact at the end of the movement, so you don't need such specification... PS: The wording in Spanish is "encontrarse o alcanzar" which I believe has the same meaning in english
Because you can apply the penalties to your opponent on the order in which you REACH base contact, you don't have to already BE in base contact. This is why you can CC someone with Martial Arts, and when they ARO Shoot at you on your way in, your opponent mod penalty from MA still applies.
However, everything in infinity happens at the same time. So you are imposing a negative to your opponent when in base. You cannot gain bonuses from MA to BS. So by the same statement your trying to say that because I shot you when we weren't engaged that I don't take MA penalties on my BS attack because where/when I shot you we weren't "engaged" or in CC. CC Special Skill has nothing to do with declaring "Close Combat Attack Short Skill" it's only description for CC is to reach or be in base contact.
