Playing 16+ orders is my choice, as playing 10 or less is yours... Why i must be forced to play in a way i dont like and play in the way others like? Ohhh, but playing 15 orders or less is faster than playing horde lists... Mostly true, but not always... I played 2 full groups in big tournaments and always play 3 turns and time never run out, while people with LI list struggle to play more than 2 turns... You, as a player, must be aware of what you can handle... If you cant play 20 orders lists in time, dont try, but dont force the people who can to handicap themselves...
because when playing against those higher order lists playing significantly less was a pure handicap outside of very few armies that drove you into also playing spam through many compounding factors, thereby putting a soft limitation on low order play. So to use your argument, Why must I be forced to play in a way I don't like and in the way others do? no longer being able to use two full combat groups to render your opponent completely combat ineffective with essentially a double alpha and still put down scenario pressure as a no brainer strategy is an overall good thing for the game, stops it boiling down to every mission being annihilation with extra steps. at least now going hard for the throat or applying scenario pressure is actually a choice for most factions. Like @Triumph said earlier, a slow player will always be slow regardless of how many models they have. but what has changed is the amount of downtime between your turns, with less activations it does get back to your turn much faster, so no more going and getting a drink while your opponent durdles around behind a wall of smoke for 15 minutes before its your turn again.
Not my problem. If you are facing 10 bodies VS 20, probably you have the advantage in quality and resilience... Forcing me to get down to 15, make my style change, while yours remain the same and makes your life easier. IDK, i dont see it like a fair deal... im not forcing you to play 20 orders... Is your choice and you must live with that instead of forcing others to adapt to you
You're right it wasn't your problem, just as your issues with the current order cap aren't my problem or anyone else's either and is just reality of an edition with a mile long list of other issues, that isn't going to change anytime soon. This made me laugh, this was almost never the case, just meant you felt the loss more and reinforced you were better off having multiple cheaper but just as effective pieces. It isn't a fair deal I agree, it is very much a sledgehammer to the kneecaps approach and could have been remedied in any number of ways (such as making any sub 10point model get a price hike to at least 10, and messing with AVA). They had options to bring the order counts down in a more elegant and organic manner that strongly disincentivised spammy playstyles but not completely invalidating them, but they elected to take the quick and easy way to achieve their desired result. Even as someone that doesn't hate the cap and likes the style of games being played (when other issues aren't rearing their ugly heads), I still find the cap incredibly irritating to deal with during list building on a semi regular basis. Also the Hard 15 cap has kind of killed Single combat group lists too, as at list building and at the table there is a pressure to always be hitting that cap, and with out the protection of limited insertion the idea of starting at 8 orders or less depending on what you are taking is really unattractive. additionally the need to always be hitting that cap dictates a lot of the choices you are making when it comes to unit selection.
Another fun stat that is probably more outdated than the others due to where points changes went in N4 was the Limited Insertion tournaments and the huge imbalance between factions. Most were just terrible at it, IA that was supposed to be designed for it was merely average, and a few had over 60% win rates.
Probably decided the Avatar running 14 orders and being immune to order stripping was kinda stupid when other faction's LI lists were punished for running 11 plus an LT that didn't have access to NCO. Basically extreme cases causing problems.
I would go the other way. A 15 Order hard limit, Regular Orders + Irregular Orders 0´+ LT Order(s) = 15. The end.
What you're expressing is that you would never do this, so would have no problem with others doing everything they can to break this soft limit.
What, breaking soft limits? GOD, i break that all the time, and i'm counting the minutes to that awful ruling dissapear and go back to my 18 bodies highlander lists... I dont want to use expensive troops... My expensive troops are garbage. My cheap boys perform well. Also, with you "hard limit" suggestion, you are throwing away many rules developed through the years, like Strategos, NCO, Tac Awareness... people always will go for maximize the bodies instead of using less troops but provided with extra orders.
It's generally hard to go over 15 orders without using units that abuse broken cost mechanics. No one actually thinks a galwegian with a chain rifle is only half as valuable as one with a rifle, or less than half as valuable as one with a shotgun. Why do we put up with it, and twist the game around enabling it with arbitrary order caps? Cheapening attributes need to go.
I have played about a dozen real life games of N4 now. I feel very uncomfortable building 15 orders list, but at the same time I can take stuff I wouldn't ever considered before the hard 15 cap. I know I won't run into standard 18-20 orders lists or worse a 32 orders Highlanders nightmare. As much as my brain hurts when list building, the experience on the gaming board is gold and I cannot stress enough how cool the limit is for me. Lately I took two borderline handicapped 11 Orders White Banner lists, made entirely of miniatures I like the looks of, to an event and won. Wouldn't even bother without the cap in place, so there's that. What I'm trying to say is: I like the limit. I hope it stays.
Honestly, now that shotguns have a built in DTW, I think you could make the argument that WB with chain rifles as their primary weapon need to go.
Do you mean that Chain Rifles are useless and not worth taking or that they are akin to "cheapening attributes"?
I'm saying that chain rifles are far too cheap for the value they provide, at least on models that have them as their primary armament, and they have been for as long as I've been playing the game.
I'd argue that Shotguns getting DTWs - and DTW proliferation generally - is bad for the game (mostly due to their effects on expensive 1W models). But that doesn't invalidate your point (CR only WB are extremely undercosted and could afford to be removed from the game).
How do you feel about the CR+Shotgun/SMG warbands? Personally I feel that's a flat out superior weapons set to CR only. If I could pay the 7 or 8 points instead of 5 to make my Shaolin carry the extra gun I would do this every time.
EM CCW > Assault Pistol + AP CCW. But that's just Morlocks. But yes, +3pts across the board for getting a SMG/LSG is a significant buff with only 15 Troopers.
