Yeah, I never get around to running the combi-minelayer, primarily because there isn't a model. As the only source of mines in ISS, I feel like I should give him a try. The only esoteric wu-ming choice I've converted up is the multi-rifle LGL guy, and I'll be taking that guy for the speculative fire utility over nimbus plus nine times out of ten. I feel like the multirifle & nimbus option doesn't add much to the link if you're already packing one multirifle. I agree that the Wu Ming rocket launcher is a better ARO piece - that armor and extra wound helps her stick around longer and roll with the punches. The Zhanying hits harder reactively, but is weaker in the active turn. As a minor bonus, bioimmunity means he's not going to get shocked out and you can doctor him back up if he doesn't eat two wounds. Still, by taking the Zhanying you get most of the reactive punch, save 5 points and get yourself some nimbus plus grenades for free. A four man all combi wu ming link could be really irritating - use your KSC to blow some smoke into a funny place and run into it, then coordinated order to set mines and coordinated order suppressive fire...
IMO the problem is that the Raiden HRL is absurdly undercosted. I have no idea where the low price tag is coming from and it outshines all the other profiles to an offensive degree. I see no downsides to the profile over the others, which could justify why that profile is cheaper.
@Zewrath a large part, if not all of it, is the fact that the HRL is so under-costed. The Raiden Multi Sniper Rifle is 26 points, without a mine or X visor. If the HRL Raiden didn't exist, I'd strongly consider taking Lunah over the Raiden Multi Sniper for only 3 points more. EDIT: And on the other side of the equation, if there was a .5 SWC shock sniper rifle version, I'd take that every time.
Are we talking different models or just the Raiden profiles? If we're talking just the Raiden for me it's the Spitfire is too slow to get into position at 4-2, and he's got no link team options. The MSR has the usual YJ issue of it's an ARO piece that isn't particularly good at being an ARO piece. I'd only consider it in JSA if I wanted something cheapish to pick off TR bots at long range. The HRL is cheap and it brings a mixed bag of options so it's more likely to be useful.
It's also that MULTI Snipers are absurdly over-costed both in points and in SWC (for lower cost models). The base ninja is 26 points, the Sniper costs 16/1.5 more than it. It seems in general to cost 8 points more than a combi rifle, which is only worth it on a unit that you're already paying 30 or so points for. The only case where the Sniper doesn't seem to add stupid amounts of cost is when the other profiles are already more expensive options, as with the Raiden, though I would agree the Raiden is in a really good sweetspot for cost/effectiveness ratio. I think 4-2 move, Limited Camo, and the lack of a CC tax are probably where the savings come from. Aragoto/Raiden spitfire is fine IMO. It's only 1 SWC for a BS12 Mimetism spitfire on a piece that can quickly move into range to use it once. It's meant to win a single f2f roll and then be done. Raiden Spitfire is the same -- he wins his one f2f roll with surprise shot (surprise, it's the same negative mod to shoot at as mimetism!) and then he's done, X-Visor makes up the difference in gap-closing ability. Same niche for both pieces.
Except the Raiden has the advantage of being able to use cover, which basically equals the aragoto's mimitism and can't be cancelled by msv.
An advantage cancelled by the fact the Aragoto will be in his +3 range band where the Raiden may not be.
I'm talking about the other Profiles. The HRL can be quite justified if you compare it to the likes of Sekban, Wildcat, Gwailo, Marauder or the Briscard. The difference usually comes down to things between higher BS/ARM or more expensive special skills/equipment, were really the only thing that sticks out is the infamous 2 SWC Wildcat. My beef with the HRL profile is the cost disparity between the profiles. The profiles are (nearly) identical but the HRL gains Minelayer and AP mines. I know Minelayer usually costs 1 point and AP mines cost 1-2 points (give or take), which would mean that without AP mines and Minelayer, the HRL would cost around 19 points, which, in my opinion, is absurd. Even without the minelayer package, there would be no way that the X-Visor Spitfire or the MSR would perform better in such a manner that would justify the 7 points increase. Even with the case of the MSR having a better rangeband, to deal with things like TR bots, you're still in a Marker State so you can simply just move closer and choose when/when not to engage, if you're ever in doubt about range. This is not even factoring in things like how the HRL have a much better ARO potential and board presence. An experienced opponent that almost certainly knows that you have a Raiden under the Camo Token, which heavily affects his movement with things like Fire Teams, or it forces him to spend orders to pop smoke to block LOF. The HRL profile is so much better that it isn't even funny. It's like coming to a car dealer who have a Mercedes and a BMW, but he has a better Ferrari for a cheaper price, you would always pick the damn Ferrari and everyone around you would heavily question your choice, if you ever picked the BMW/Mercedes.
The Raiden isn't as good at attacking your opponent's DZ, because it isn't designed to do that. While the Raiden and Aragoto have similar statlines, they fill VERY different roles. When you look at the roles they fill, they are both likely to be in their +3 range most of the time.
Sniper and Spitfire aren't sufficiently dangerous to be worth the extra points, particularly not in ARO. Situation would be different if the Camo was proper camo or if they at least had Mimetism or ODD, but they join the ranks of troops with a tiny bit too high ARM and ARM is expensive. Sniper is a weapon where you want static avoidance of Mimetism or better in order to allow you to be a PITA and be hard to stack MODs against while Spitfire is a weapon you want to re-use several times meaning the Limited Camo is a bit... shite? Missile Launcher, Heavy Rocket Launcher, and similar AOE weapons? Much better suited for Limited Camo. Still, Yu Jing is missing a decent TO or ODD sniper and I might be wishing for the Raiden sniper to fill that role. Ninja sniper doesn't count, the MA level makes it prohibitively expensive to make use of effectively (makes it better, but also means the expectations on what they must accomplish increases which is difficult when the increase in performance is non-synnergistic)
I think the issue is you're locking in the sniper into an ARO role. I've found that most YJ snipers are much better as counter ARO pieces and precision offensive pieces. In those roles, the Raiden still works well. If you want a "traditional" sniper in YJ, you want either Lunah, Le Meut, or a Tiger Soldier.
I don't agree. Setting Raidens up as a precision tool sets the bar too low, my metric for precision tools are either being able to get a TR HMG to have no defence (so; Lunah, Ninja, Hac Tao, Le Muet, etc) or to have visibility tools that allows me to deny opponent MODs and stack my own (Bao, Le Muet, Hsien). On the other hand, I've had absolutely fantastic success using Raidens to take out groups. I can not understate how valuable a HRL Raiden can be at doing something suicidal like looking straight into the scope of a Plasma Sniper Unidron - only to the dismay of the CA player when they realises that the sniper isn't the real target, but rather the two Unidrons that's a bit too close to it. (Once, I was even lucky enough to get to do that to a Husong by shooting a Chaiyi) Le Muet is amazing, btw.
N Note how all of the units you listed are more expensive than the Raiden, the raiden can still force -9 on a TR Bot which will eliminate it most of the time, and is an absolute bargain compared to most of the stuff you listed (not to mention, almost none of that is available in JSA, which is where the Raiden is optimized for).
No, the list of better options is fairly long, since we're talking troops that can suddenly link; Keisotsu MSR, Keisotsu ML, Haramaki ML, and O-Yoroi. The O-Yoroi is roughly equal, the Haramaki is the best. Honourable mention goes to Haramaki Blitzen (2-burst) and Assisted Fire Rui Shi shooting in -6 range which gets close as well as the Keisotsu HMG (which is better than the Raiden MSR at killing but also at dying). The list of long-range troops that the Raiden MSR beats in JSA (of course, I am assuming link teams) is fairly limited. It will do it safer - once. I haven't run the numbers comparing the Raiden to a target that's immune to Surprise Shot, of course, but the stats are... disappointing. Bottom line is; if you're playing JSA and find that you have to brute-force a TR HMG, take your main-hitter or your backup hitter as they will likely have the tools to get the job done. Only use a Raiden MSR if you can't afford to risk taking damage with your main hitter (for reference; most JSA run a 1-in-10 of getting hurt by a TR HMG while brute-forcing, Raiden will have a 5% risk during Surprise Shot only while O-Yoroi is roughly at the same risk simply by ARM value) My data was collected using the Q-Drone (couldn't be arsed changing it) but the Mimetism shouldn't change the comparison between units too much to matter since none of them have MSV (except the Rui Shi which was mostly interesting for comparing the increase in killing power at extreme range compared to long range). Ninja MSR doesn't have to brute-force the REM, so is not applicable. Again, I think the Spitfire and MSR should have Mimetism* instead of X-visor (Spitfire thus about 27 points and MSR about 29) or MSV1** or Marksmanship 2*** for internal balance reasons. * Since Mimetism solves everything ** Since JSA is sorely lacking MSV *** Probably the option that would be most exciting but make the least amount of sense (side note: it's a bit annoying that the cover ignoring effect is at level 2)
Again, all of those things cost vastly more than a Raiden, of course theyre going to be more effective.
They aren't. Keisotsu are all vastly cheaper. The link is more expensive, but they will be there regardless if you opt for the Raiden for orders so I don't know if you can count their costs in a comparison at all. The other options are all going to be there as your main hitter. The consideration for every single other item on the list is not "is it more expensive" (which in the case of Haramaki ML is "barely"), but rather "can I afford to risk them". There is higher order efficiency in spending orders on literally any other unit than a Raiden from my list, since you want those units or links to improve their position and you'll be at least a partial move better for doing so. You did write that the Raiden was a good one-off shot, I presume when shooting from Surprise Shot, but all of the units on the list will be able to do their thing repeatedly and with only a few exceptions they will be doing so throughout a typical game unless lucky or out-manoeuvred. With the exception of the Keisotsu (unless they need to move forward to push buttons), each order you spend on them is going to not only make for higher kill-efficiency, but also higher order efficiency compared to the Raiden which now has lost its only profile-given asset. And again, the non-HRL Raidens can do a great job, particularly when your opponent isn't expecting them, but I still think that the other options are going to be better and also allow you to capitalise on the strengths of playing a sectorial. The one thing that speaks for the Raiden is that you can put them in a position that other troopers don't need to be in. That can be valuable, but it is highly terrain and opponent dependent. If the terrain or opponent deployment doesn't allow you to capitalize on putting the Raiden far from your Samurai/Ordermooks, you've gambled and lost. So I'll keep writing the Raiden MSR off as completely uninteresting, but the Raiden Spitfire could use a double-take. It's a shame this profile didn't get the mines, that would have been a sweet on them.
Just picked up the Major Lunah model (which is very nice) and looking forward to testing her out. Does anyone have a preference between her and Knauf? For an extra 3 points you get +1 BS and MSV1 but lose the ability to deploy as a camo token and the viral sniper rifle. How do you find they stack up against each other and when would you be tempted to pick one over the other?
Knauf is arguably equal to a Viral Sniper as Marksmanship adds Shock to the AP/DA of his Multi Sniper, it depends how your target's BTS and ARM compare. That said, not starting in a marker state is a big deal, and Knauf isn't available to ISS.
