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lol miniature market is selling a no sell model for 20$

Discussion in 'Off-Topic English' started by redeemer, May 12, 2018.

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Should CB allow retailers to sell limited availability models after the preorder period have ended?

  1. yes

    26 vote(s)
    55.3%
  2. no

    21 vote(s)
    44.7%
  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    This doesn't really explain how its pressure? You're not forced to buy the happy meal, you could just buy the regular burger.

    I can understand that the models are very desirable and you want them so you purchase the item even if you don't want it. But isn't that your decision?

    Spec-ops aren't profiles that need a specific model. So I don't quite follow how this is an example of you being forced to pre-order the JSA box. If you don't want to pre-order, you use literally anything else as a spec-ops.

    The brawler profile can be represented by literally any light infantry in the game. Its another nifty sculpt which won't likely get friends from what I've heard?

    I don't know what your point is here other that to just characterise my opinion as something moralistic. So we can align as right and wrong or something...

    Woah boy. Bet that sounded witty in your head.

    Could we maybe not start the discussion immediately throwing accusations? I apologise if there was any hint of saying you're [Edit: I see its not even your post] wrong in my post as that was not the intention.

    I don't understand the criticism about pre-order minis? I get that people don't like them. But I don't understand the underlying logic as to why they're "underhanded".
     
  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Point is, I might not want the burger at all (Uprising book, with barely 60 pages for the Merc companies), but I'd want the toy. Sure I can say "no, I won't buy it". Then again, a collector is a collector, and as I said, it's easier to just say "no, no toys for me, thanks".
    The two happiest people in the world were the warlord who got it all, and the monk who told him he wanted nothing.

    I already mentioned the Proxy rules. The previous version was that a Specops could legally proxy any of the profiles it had access to (so for example you could use the Nomad's as Alguacil or Moderator) with things getting a little muddy when there were several miniatures (Shasvastii Specops Vs Morat Specops), but I never had any trouble there.
    Now, of course anyone can use any troop as the JSA specops. Or their ASS army, with Ajax posing as the Daiyokai, and it would be perfectly legal under the proxy rules. And a mess nobody would want to face in a tournament with time constraints.

    As for the Brawlers, most of the community is waiting for a box. Personally, if I want models to use as Brawlers, it's quite likely I will resort to Fusiliers, since their hat remembers me unit's logo and I'm using YJ and PanO as sources for proxying models I'm not totally happy with in my armies or to avoid duplication of models if possible.

    Just pointing that ignoring the problem won't make it less of a problem, and that to critic something doesn't mean to be a hater.

    Just referring to the style you have consistently used previously when answering critics to CB (ref: some of the Uprising threads). Intentionally harsh, in hopes of showing how antagonistic it can sound and totally ruin any other point you might make in a post.

    Personally, I would be happier if CB gave away other kind of promo material than the miniatures, or something along the lines of the Unknown Ranger and the RPG miniatures (same model, different arms). People have been quite happy with the narrative Tournament Packs' "alternate" TAGs (Eduardo & the O-Yoroi) despite them being the original TAG with a different set of arms.
     
  3. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    So really, it just bothers you. Because you want the reward offered without the risk? Cool. I'm not sure that's the point durandel was making so I'll wait for their response.

    And you seem so self assured of how right you are, that being a dick to me doesnt even register. Nice.
     
  4. Durandal

    Durandal Well-Known Member

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    *sigh*

    I'll be honest, I'd been away from this place all week and decided to pop in to see if there was any random news, but discourse like this has been reminding me why I don't stick around too long.

    I wasn't going to respond, but fuck it.

    My point is that offering an exclusive incentive in order to convince someone to put money down on something sight-unseen is an anti-consumer practice utilized by the video-gaming industry to secure early sales instead of having to rely on more nebulous post-release sales.

    It is pressure because it applies scarcity and exclusivity to something that wouldn't otherwise have it. Whether it be exclusive cosmetics in video games or exclusive miniatures in minis games, the bottom line is that by attaching these things in a limited and exclusive fashion to a product that the consumer cannot reasonably guess the quality of is an underhanded way of getting them to shell their money over before the company risks reviews that may damage their sales due to producing a sub-par product.

    It isn't "rewarding loyalty" since it basically requires putting money down in the first place (rewarding loyalty would be, say, a point system where after X purchases you get a free gift worth Y points). The risk is all on the customer in this case, thus the practice is anti-consumer since it is a soft way of side-stepping a customer's right to be informed by trying to dangle something enticing in front of them.

    I honestly kind of feel like seeing it any other way is just being willfully obtuse. Tying exclusive material to a release if and only if the customer puts money down on it before they can see a single review is an obvious ploy to get sales in before people can form an actual opinion on the product. Sure, if you're already convinced that the company in question can't possibly ever be wrong then you aren't going to see a problem because you were going to blind buy whatever they put out. But for folks that value their rights as a consumer it definitely stinks that you need to miss out on a miniature release you may have actually wanted (and likely would have purchased on its own) just because you have high enough standards to want to wait for actual reviews before dropping money on a product. That these sculpts can often wait for a year or more for a non-exclusive version only really makes it worse

    But honestly, I feel like I've already made myself clear so with that clarification I'm well and truly out. End of the day, CB neither needs or deserves defense from its fans. Let them handle their own shit and stop feeling the need to leap on grenades for them, they certainly wouldn't do the same for you after all (they're a company, not your friend). Shielding them from criticism doesn't help make them a better company, it only serves to allow them to think they can get away with shittier practices because of undying fan loyalty. There was another company that thought/thinks like this (many actually) and I'd hate to see a company I used to be so passionate about go down that same road.
     
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  5. Lothlanathorian

    Lothlanathorian Not a custom title

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    To maintain the metaphor AND give my opinion on preorder minis: You can buy the Happy Meal toy without buying a Happy Meal.
     
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  6. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts. Thanks.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not always, at least at this moment, and sometimes in a way that chafes totally your desire to. For example, the new Juana: I was looking for reasons to pick her up (I have a converted version from Giraldez's), but having the Tactical Umbra's arm as part of her leg? No frigging way, no matter how much "He-Man/She-Ra stepping on Skeletor" the montage is (not to mention placing a pyramid of rocks instead of the Umbra would be ok and quite Conan-like), I won't spend a day filing away that arm, and let's not talk about the new face (it's Achilles, more ovoid, but... -.-).
    The RPG models are a good example: they changed the arms but it was a transition from "we carry weapons" to "we don't carry weapons", ideal for HVT and civilians. The Unknown Range is a meh, since the preorder exclusive was more interesting with the shield in use, like how the Krakot have been a "urgh" as the regular model (with a Biceps wider than their leg... it's so... deformed).

    But the problem comes with models that cannot be found anywhere, unless you go to the second hand market (JSA specops, Wardriver, the Druze KHD...). Where I hear an unopened Giraldez's Juana can go up to 70 bucks, way more than the book ever costed, even adding the miniature to it.

    So no, I'd say that you can't really get the toy without the happy meal.
     
  8. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    This is a very interesting topic. I find it funny how people who don't like how CB does something, immediately asume those of us who have no problem with that particular issue are rabid fanboys that will Kwang Shi their way to defend Corvus Belli. It could never be that we just don't share your opinion. That would be too much, I guess.

    If you ask me about the ITS rules that came with the Kidnap HVT card, I'll spew only venom, because I didn't like how its "fluff" was just a rehash of what we already had from the Wotan Campaign and the ALIVE articles.

    I don't own any of the Giraldez books (because I've had enough experience with How-To art books to know that I personally need a more interactive way to actually grasp what the authors are trying to convey). No mini forces me to buy something I don't want, no matter how pretty or how "exclusive"

    None of the LE minis are necesary to play the game. It wasn't before the new ITS rules on proxies, and now it's even less with the change.

    And just because I don't mind having a mini on a product I was going to buy anyway, doesn't make me a CB apologyst, just someone who doesn't share the opinion that it's an underhanded tactic.
     
  9. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    I don't mind the pre-order mini, and I also don't mind people selling them later if they have a stock a year down the line.

    I get why people are not happy with it, but they aren't separating them out of current products - I ordered a BRV and mine had the CSU in, because they still had some pre-order ones in stock.
     
  10. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    In the boxes the models are inside... with the books they are separate and so easily separated...

    If they have left over stock a year later then either they have separated the minis OR they haven't sold a single further copy of (xxx book) since release. Which is highly unlikely
     
  11. Lothlanathorian

    Lothlanathorian Not a custom title

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    Are you Donald Trump, because that had shit all to do with my post. You CAN buy the Happy Meal toy without buying a Happy Meal. That's a flat fucking fact. The insinuation in my post is that I don't think there should be preorder exclusives.

    My actual thoughts on the matter: There should be a pre-order bundle with a model that comes with the book for the price of the book if you pre order, and then they should be made available separately when the retail date hits. Or the preorder exclusive should be an alternate sculpt for either an existing model or one that will be released a month or so after the book is out.
     
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
    Moderator

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    Language please!
     
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  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Just to be clear... you are talking about the literal "happy meal" product of McDonalds? If so, to my knowledge you cannot in Spain, thus my use of that simil :/ (then again, it has been more than 20 years since I last bought one).

    This one is the option I think is the most fair, frankly.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the timing for the general release version of a pre-order special should be a lot closer.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Today I just realized, btw, that currently there are 4 Druze (box), and that's it (since the old blister was the spitfire that no longer has a profile...), so we can list that one as another prerrelease that is needed in itself to fill the fireteam's AVA... XD
     
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    That is such a stretch...
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, it's pretty accurate. You need the pre-order to fill out a core fireteam of druze without using proxies, conversions, or duplicate models.
     
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  18. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    At the time of the pre-order there were 5 sculpts of druze.

    The pre-order has been and gone. if you have somehow got into druze since then and only have 4 sculpts, the existence of the pre-order doesn't change your situation. By the same logic, discontinuing the old druze sculpts is just as bad as they too are unavailable and you can only buy 4 druze.

    Pre-ordering for miniatures is barely analogous to video games because there is a physical product that must be produced. The company must either estimate the demand for a product, and they must be conservative about it to ensure they have sufficient stock for release. If the product doesn't sell well, that is cost that isn't being recouped in revenue until a much later time.

    Business is always about managing cash flows.

    Pre-ordering de-risks this process for manufacturers of physical product immensely as it provides absolute certain cash flow to support the commitment to production.

    As a consumer, you're accepting a certain amount of risk.

    So how do you propose that producers entice consumers to take on that risk? As it is hugely beneficial to them.

    To be honest, even though I'm a big fan of CB I wouldn't bother pre-ordering if there wasnt a model involved. I don't agree that pre-order models are sold separately from the product they're tied too.

    I do believe alternative models based on the pre-order model should be produced and limited edition (as in no alternative sculpt is produced) should be used sparingly.

    So far, I haven't seen a single suggestion about pre-order here that incentivises me to pre-order which allows CB to de-risk their manufacturing.
    If you think CB isn't allowed to de-risk their business with harmless incentives than I don't know what to say to you. Its a bit selfish though.
     
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Druze Sculpts have changed from Yu Jing weapons to Nomad weapons. The loadout has changed too (no more Spitfire, which was the Blister, and now the HMG comes inside the box). They can just release a Druze with the same body as the preorder one, but with a pistol instead of the free hand, or even a grenade.

    Use models that are for bragging rights only? Nobody has complained about the Yuan Yuan that came with the Pre-Order of the Red Veil box, since we have a 2 YY blister, and there are still Fat YY boxes going around some shops. The Beyond boxes have a 50% success here: there is a normal Bounty Hunter model on the store (two, in fact, one has a motorbike), but there are no CSU models outside of the Beyond Icestorm pre-order... and those are pretty useful to StarCo.

    Essentially: alternate poses, alternate skins, or even obscure weapon loadouts that are not primary (for example, an ADL).
     
  20. Danger Rose

    Danger Rose The Wrecking Belles

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    But they do those things. The Authorized Bounty Hunter with Pink Hair, which was a LE mini, has the Motorcycle version. There are several General Release Jean D'Arc, and Miranda Ashcroft has a mini as well. Those things take time though, so it's a matter of patience. In the mean time, there is no rule against proxying.
     
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