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LoF and order timing

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Hecaton, Feb 27, 2019.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Situation: A trooper walks to gain LoF to a large camouflage token, such as a Sphinx and an S2 trooper/target behind it (in this case it was an Ímetron). In ARO, the Sphinx reveals, firing a weapon at the active trooper. Can the active trooper target the Ímetron with an attack, if at no point during its movement it has vision to the position of the Ímetron that isn't blocked by the Sphinx's current position?
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Camouflage Markers do not block LOF, so at some point in the movement it had LOF to the Imetron and can thus shoot it.

    Yes I know Camo says it is revealed for the entire order, but I don't see that as being equivalent to also blocking LOF for the entire order.
     
    toadchild and daboarder like this.
  3. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    No, because a revealed Camo is a Model (i.e. blocks LoF) during the entire order.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Robock likes this.
  5. poserrr

    poserrr New Member

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    It gets interesting if the active trooper is in camo (so the sphinx can delay his aro)

    Lähetetty minun EVA-L09 laitteesta Tapatalkilla
     
  6. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
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    Markers in general do not block LoF:

    Unless otherwise indicated for specific purposes, Markers do not obstruct LoF.

    But like @Mathamori said I am not sure about it though I would be with @tox since the Camouflaged state says:
    • The cancellation of Camouflaged state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Camouflaged trooper declares a Move+ BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement.
    Even though it doesn't mention AROs I would play it this way.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. It's a slow burning problem that's not entirely likely to stump a game, but still. Paging @Arkhos94 ?
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Here and reading. I will wait a few more post to see if a different opinion come then add it to the (evergrowing) list.
     
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  9. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    If only the old forums were around.

    Does the retroactive nature of revealing Camo apply in the reactive turn?

    Previous discussions settled on no and the target was valid and available at some point, so still valid and available when a BS attack is declared.
     
  10. Wolf

    Wolf https://watchwolf.net

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    My assumption would have been that, since the revealed-in-ARO model is taken to have been revealed for the whole Order, it should also be taken to have obscured the smaller model behind it for the whole Order. Thus, a 2nd short skill Shoot wouldn't be declared, because LoF can be checked after the ARO is declared, so the active player wouldn't shoot. But if Shoot was declared as the first short skill, then it would have to be nulled after the ARO, since LoF turned out to be unavailable. That seems very much like the way Smoke Dodge works, effectively.

    This seems strange to me, because surely the target wasn't 'available at some point'. I get that it's a little troublesome because we don't know that until the ARO is declared, but surely the outcome could only be that LoF was never really available, even though it seemed like it was.

    As usual, I don't really mind; I'd just like to know how to play, but could someone explain why it's not as straightforward as it seems to me; maybe I've misunderstood something?
     
  11. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    Bit surprised no-one's asking this from the point-of-view of the Imetron's ARO? I.e., does it get to shoot the active model back?
    (Then what happens if the active model has a shotgun & thus catches the remote in its blast?)
     
  12. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    that the sphinx can have the ability to prevent the enemy shooting his S2 friend is far from how smoke works. You can ARO with smoke but it will never protect third parties.

    that a camo can reveal to block LoF and nullifying declared LoF-needed skills is odd. But there is so many odd thing in the rule, it would be hard to know the answer without CB answering it.

    It sound similar to how movement doesn't block LoF and a front model dodging away (since it triggers mines as if it moved to its final position) should also un-block LoF to models behind so that they can ARO too (either in same ARO step or in the second ARO step as they had no ARO in the first opportunity but they have LoF in the second opportunity). And I think it was ruled dodging in this case would be a movement that doesn't un-block LoF. I would not be surprised if revealing in ARO would not block LoF that was already there. I also would not be surprised that different case = different rule = different ruling.
     
    #12 Robock, Feb 27, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2019
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Camouflaged state being revealed for the entire Order was written specifically to let a marker that reveals itself in the active turn be attacked/reacted to anywhere along it's movement path.

    My personal opinion is that the troopers had LoF, so nothing gets cancelled.
     
  14. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I feel like this problem is the same as when disembarking as the second short skill was not illegal, it broke the game fundamentally and so wasnt allowed then. I dont think the answers are the same but the finding yourself into a legal set of actions is quite similar.