Good point, forgot about the Umbra I don't think you're actually familiar with building the JSA links. The Domaru vs Tanko don't suffer than same issue at Teutons vs Magisters because they have reasons to exist in the links: You have to bring them. Domaru must be present in their core, they have mixed core LI link they go in, and 2 Haris links they go in. Domaru have the only specialist for their core link Domaru have the only gun fighting option in the link, no other option has anything viable to cover the 8-24" range band. This is ignoring the fact that Domaru and Tanko have different enemies that they're specialised in dealing with. Tanko are for bringing down expensive targets that fight back poorly. Domaru are who you call to handle targets that can handle themselves in CC, like Achilles or Joan. For example Achilles vs Tanko in CC 65.87% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (1 W) 49.11% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (Unconscious) 18.27% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 3 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (Dead) Failures 16.73% Neither player succeeds Reactive Player 17.40% Tankō Zensenbutai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) (Dead) That's a coinflip on the Tanko straight up dieing, let alone losing a single F2F roll and having a second chance. Now if you ask a Domaru to handle the job with Berserk: 95.20% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Domaru Butai (1 W) 69.60% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Domaru Butai (Unconscious) 25.20% Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) inflicts 3 or more wounds on Domaru Butai (Dead) Failures 4.80% No success Reactive Player 77.50% Domaru Butai hits Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) (Disabled) 9.00% Domaru Butai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Achilles v2 (Hoplite Armor) (2 W) Odds are the Domaru dies gloriously whilst leaving Achilles helpless for a fireteam member (like the Tanko) to finish the job for him. I wouldn't call JSA fireteams the most well oiled and optimised profiles out there but saying that Domaru and Tanko overshadow each other is a failure of understanding how they function. I'm not sure where you're going with this. The game is expanding, more stuff will be added. For every unit that was added with Mono how many units without mono got added? The reality is that Mono ammo is still relatively rare when you look at the game. You're flip flopping back and forth between equally unsound fluff and mechanical arguments.
To fake-criticize you further, you didn't list which of the monofilament weapons are actually competent enough to be generally useful and which ones you really, really, really need to jump through hoops to use. I am personally only concerned of the Umbra's ranged Monofilament and that Monofilament mines will become a fad and only more or less defenceless against the Speculo. Nearly all other monofilament sources are either too incompetent to be sufficient amount of threat (Cube Jaeger) or scream out their presence in a way that allows me to plan for it (yes, that applies even to Oniwaban). Apply a bit of social distancing, some mines, or maybe sacrificial peons and you can parry the threat.
Seriously this thread has become an argument over whether there's too much mono in the game now? I think perhaps we've run out of useful things to say here....
Oh I'm fairly familiar with JSA, to the extend that I shelved mine hoping they'll actually work regardless of matchup and can field their HI without cringing in a better editon (N4 please?). They're doing pretty well and there's nothing wrong with them until you run them into a spammy list where your CC value is wasted on 20 point models and a sea of Mines and Chainrifles, while you can't keep up with more orders and more bodies outshooting and outmaneavering you. Would much prefer Haramaki over Tanko. The BS Attack damage output from a Domaru is pathetic compared to what the dude and the Link costs. Their CC manages to be both ridiculous overkill and at the same time lacks efficiency to dispatch mooks. Oddly enough your example is exactly doing what it's not supposed to do. Magisters are very much the stars of the CC show in a link with Teutons - they win FTF and if that's not enough just gang up for more B. While the Teuton(read Santiago) adds much better BS Attack options - oh yeah and a chunk of points cheaper while better overall. But You're throwing what is supposed to be arguments but it doesn't seem as if you've gotten my point yet. So... why? Quick summary again: Several if not all oneshot mechanics got toned down in N4 - I like this Crits got toned down to make ARM/BTS more relevant - not quite sure about the execution, but better than before Mono was left alone (aside from the removal of Crits) - I'd lump it in with other oneshot mechanics, not a fan i.e. some random PanO Doc with barely useable CC has a Mono CCW for whatever reason. Making ARM more useful while increasing the access to the one thing that most affects it doesn't make sense to me. If a TAG's armor is supposed to matter and other oneshot mechanics can all be reversed without assistance, why can a random MI doctor mook stil chop it in half in a single lucky hit? Mind you I'm fine with mono being able to chop up the TAG in 2 hits/Crit with 2 failed saves or one success and Coup de Grace. It's not a major game ruining issue. What I don't get is why the RNG to instantly remove an Avatar in one hit no questions asked must exist on 20 point troops. When the design clearly moved away from oneshot mechanics. Did that finally click for you? Any chance you can spare me with your weird examples for having a couple first thoughts on how things are shaping up for N4? Can we stop derailing the Jammer thread?
No, because you've completely overlooked the initial point that was made that you shouldn't be getting your 100pt TAG chopped in half by the 20pt doctor/Kanren/Cube Jager. At what point did you screw up so badly that you allowed such a poorly optimised CC unit that may or may not even have smoke support to find their way into CC with your 100pt TAG? @Mahtamori summed it up a second time for you "Nearly all other monofilament sources are either too incompetent to be sufficient amount of threat (Cube Jaeger) or scream out their presence in a way that allows me to plan for it (yes, that applies even to Oniwaban). Apply a bit of social distancing, some mines, or maybe sacrificial peons and you can parry the threat." Counters exist in gameplay mechanics. Certain units are built to do a certain job. Counter them instead of letting them counter you in the case of competent threats like an Oniwaban, and in the case of incompetent threats like a Cube Jager should you ever actually see one on a table, don't screw up so hard that they are handed the chance to chop a TAG in half on a silver platter. If every faction had something as retardedly lethal as a speculo, yes I would agree with you. But the reality is the only access to mono for many factions is on shit as useless as a cube jager, which means for all functional purposes it's essentially not even in the game beyond flavour.
There's also the point that we actually don't know what profiles will continue to have Mono in N4. Based on C1, there really only seems to be one faction that is in a position to effectively (if not efficiently) erase your centerpiece: O-12 with Goldstein (Casanova, with FD and ODD, perhaps... but he also has very short range weaponry 1 W and 1ARM, so...). Nourkias having DA over Vorpal is evidence that things MIGHT change...
He has a valid point I completely agree with. My point was purely mechanical. "Oneshot stuff got nerfed, why didn't Mono? Heck why is there more incompetent Mono than ever? How does it contribute to the game?" As @Mahtamori mentions Mono users are either well telegraphed or pretty bad at the stabby part. I'm neither concerned about defending against Mono, nor concerned about getting the most out of my own Mono either. Simply looks like the low odds high impact "plays" being in the game for not much of a good reason don't make it better to me. Guess the response to your 'git gud' would be a maybe practice your reading comprehension?
If you understand that it's mechanically pointless and functionally never going to happen why are you complaining about it? Again, you could roll nothing but failed hits, the game allows for this to happen mechanically but statistically it's really unlikely to happen. You're whinging about something that has absolutely no bearing or meaning on the game. Accept that Kanren and the Sir Knight doctor have fancy swords purely for flavour that they'll never use and move on.
Not sure which part of "low odds high impact" was ambiguous to you. I'm lost here, really. That's not the same thing as "Jotum dies to a single Combi Rifle Burst", that's unlikely to happen. You're probably shooting that Jotum with the odds to win the FTF in your favour though. You're not gambling, you're getting lucky while taking an action in your favor. Different thingss. What I'm talking about is providing an option, that rarely comes up and even when it does only provides low odds to succed for significant rewards. More or less equivalent to the principle of gambling, rather than providing a reliable option. A gameplan is mostly built on finding, setting up and taking actions in your favor till it accumulates to a win. Just roll with it mate. *shrug*
I like mono. Lightsabers are cool. I am fine with the imagery of a cyber ninja cutting a Tag in half. To accomplish that in-game is so difficult, it is spectacular if it happens.
I mean they can use it better than a Cube Jager but they don't really make it into close combat. Kanren are a specialist unit in the sense that if they're in your list they're already performing a different job which which isn't try to run across to the enemy side of the table get into close combat. In years of playing YJ I've made exactly a single close combat attack with a Kanren, they're just too busy doing other stuff their CC stats are mostly flavour and decoration but not overcosted to the point where it makes the unit bad. You are not talking about making a single lucky roll, you are talking about engineering an entire turn's worth of stupid decisions to run a sub optimally geared model across a table, somehow penetrating your opponents defenses, to make this happen. Which again brings us back to who the hell is doing this, and why on earth are you worried about potentially losing to players that are (un)intentionally throwing the game? If it's unintentional worry about helping them to learn why this is crippling them in 99 out of 100 games, and if it's intentional you should probably have a chat with them that you're not finding them losing 99 out of 100 games on purpose not very stimulating, because Monofilament isn't the problem here they're not just saying "fuck it" and taking a bad roll on purpose they're going well out of their way to make the game no fun by fucking up an entire turn on purpose. This isn't like crit fishing it takes a large amount of setup to achieve.
I think sometimes people use units in different ways, I've seen that a lot with the Bandit. Other than surprise attack they have an AHD that they can hide with their holo. Might become more of an option in N4. Penthesilea is a hidden mono user that looks bad until you run the numbers, she is usually even worth it against TAGs that ignore her skill.
Penny is way more likely to make it into CC with her speed and vis mods though, that's kinda the thing. The Kanren's a mediocre gun fighter with basic guns and is normal speed. The ability to close the gap isn't really there.
Look mate, at this point lets just admit you still disagree instead of attempting whatever this is. I'm saying it's hillarious you still operate under the impression you can teach me something. Just wow. Kudos to you mate, that's some healthy self esteem. Like seriously, you try to lecture about shit you don't really show any aptitude for. Blanket statements for everything that fits your argument and willfully construct ideal circumstances to fabricate some sort of validity. Eh sure, that's gonna show the internet, lol.
Holo 2 gives a lot of mobility as well, allowing you to clear mines and Koalas, as well as approach non-dtw troops with the threat of free shots if they try to shoot.
That last part will get less common now that all light shotguns will have DTW mode ;) (Come think of it - wonder what'll happen to Haqq units, if they get their LSGs removed, replaced, or if they get a price hike.) Look, just running the numbers on Kanren will tell a bit of a story. They're not very reliable in melee, so setting up to use them primarily for their Mono CCW is folly because it costs a lot of orders to get a melee user in range and the Kanren isn't statistically going to give you the odds you need for return on investment. Once in a blue moon they'll be able to get a sufficiently important target that had to stop close enough, but that's not common, so typically the gun a Kanren carries will be by far the deadlier tool. I would compare their melee ability to a Volunteer Rifle's shooting ability in that they'll get fair odds against most targets in their price range and a bit above, but you don't plan 5-6 orders around a Volunteer getting into position for that shot unless you're desperate - but if there's a Tiger Soldier in your DZ you'll have fair odds of beating them with your Volunteer due to burst advantage and next to no order expenditure and that's hardly useless...
