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Linked Jammers: Super-broken, now in White Banner

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Savnock, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd agree with this, but some people take it too far towards non-interactivity.
     
  2. Vocenoctum

    Vocenoctum Well-Known Member

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  3. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Nice! Hopefully it carries over to N4.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Since CodeOne seems to be the entry-point for N4, I would assume it does.
     
  5. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Almost has to be. I would imagine there are only additional layers and nuances to be added on, not anything to be truly changed/stripped away from CodeOne to N4.
     
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  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    What is interesting is that 1) both IMM and Targeted states stay in play until fixed by an Engineer or cancelled by Reset(-3)/PH(-6) in case of IMM-A. which might indicate that in N4 troopers will be able to Reset out of Isolation as well (assuming that the state will stay in the game).
     
    #586 Stiopa, Apr 27, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    That is my take as well. I like that they are moving towards more interaction. Hopefully, the only state that cannot be cancelled will be the dead state.
     
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  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Honestly, I wouldn't be against some piece of VoodooTech being able to do just that :alien:
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Big fan of the changes to Adhesive/Stun/IMM(-2)

    New Crit rules are an improvement, yet increase the RNG spread. Still not sold.

    Absolutely no fan that Mono CCWs still instagib (rather than causing 3 W) while they remain available to everyone and their grandma...
    Fire can still onesthot anything if you roll bad enough, but at least availability of Flamethrowers appears to have gone down a lot.

    ARM seems very relevant. All the more after a bunch of YJ Profiles that had Nanopulser/LFT now have Chaincolts instead.

    Jammers can very likely be resetted out of, no idea if they'll inflict a new take on Isolation or just IMM-B (the one vs WIP, not PH).
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Realistically there's only 1 offender in the game that makes it trivial to get a mono weapon on target, and we don't yet know if the Impersonation rules are being changed. Anybody else needs to work for their kills and if you're letting them trivially delete your high value targets then that's on the defender for being a donkey.
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Not the point at all.
    Stuff with 3W/STR is rare and expensive enough that even a Oniwaban should have to stab it twice if it's undamaged.

    What's the point of making ARM matter if it doesn't to the apparently most widespread type of CCW in the game?
    If Mono CCWs were restricted to elite CC Specialists okay. But apparently every random mook can get his hands on one and try to get lucky now.
    Removing/changing a bunch of oneshot mechanics on one end while increasing availability on the other seems a bit counterproductive.

    Do Infirmarers, Cube Jägers, Tanko and Kanren really need Mono CCWs for the heck of it? If it's that easy to get your hands on one why aren't basic Ninja's using them?
     
    #591 Teslarod, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2020
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Because Oniwaban have them.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Why should they? They pay through the nose for CC capacity on a super squishy model and completely sacrifice the ability to effectively gunfight.

    I think you should actually take stock on the CCW types. Mono isn't even close to being the most widespread. That'd be AP or DA. YJ has 9 DA units, 8 Shock units, versus 6 with Mono and half of the mono carriers are characters, and that's a CC themed faction.

    You have 4 Mono weapons in Pan-o and three of those are Mercs versus 11 DA weapons. Come on dude, are you even looking?

    It sounds like your complaint is fluff based not game based.
     
    #593 Triumph, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    I'm surprised you of all people didn't pick up on the mix of hyperbole. Does that help?
    Read "every and their mom gets Mono CCWs" as the game has too many.

    Yes and that's a very easily understandable balance decision.
    But then again, why do Tankos have them?
    That is a very weird decision if we come back to the point about caring for balance.
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Maybe because they would be too cheap otherwise or maybe because if they had put any other weapon to beat armour there would be another more suitable option to have a model unconscious than the pistol.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to pick up on it when your complaint about too many is so few. Pan-O literally has one monofilament weapon that's available inhouse. The other 3 belong to mercenary characters and aliens.

    Otherwise you're complaining about two factions that were themed around CC having a couple of extra units with Mono weapons? Again, really? Is your complaint fluff or game play based because honestly when was the last time you ever saw a Kanren stab something? I've personally never even seen someone even put a Cube Jager on the table.
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Fixing a pricing problem with something that apparently is supposed to be rare and valuable and steps on i.e. the Oniwaban's toes hits the complaint pretty much on the head.

    Before the Kanren were a thing Mono weapons got culled in between N2 and N3. Pheasants and Cranes used to have them (probably got removed due to price issues rather than balance ones). Mono Mines used to exist on Sierras, no more Mono Minelayer Profiles. Someone didn't like all that Mono in the game.

    Turning the page to 2020 we're pretty much looking at the opposite. Mono CCWs aren't exactly special, most Factions have them slapped onto something + as Triumph points out 3 Mercs/Aliens.
    This isn't about Goldstein, he's a good place to add a Mono CCW. But what's the point of having shiny Mono CCWs on people too stupid to wield them properly? That just adds undesireable RNG form where I stand, add a few pips of stats and a DA CCW if it must be able to hurt someone if it hits, or better use the points to make it CC21+ and a random CC Skill.

    I do like the new CC deterrent option of somewhat competent CC (18-19) combined with a Para CCW -6, that's a good way to include CC as a worthwhile defensive option (with the ability to use it offensively, but it only disables, so you have to follow up on it).
     
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  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would argue that first Oniwabans have them because how you are going to prove you are superior to the rubble if your cutting stick is not the sharpest?, and that for a regular Ninjas combat mission a stab that is not from a monofilament weapon is easier deniable than one from it.

    Tenko do not care they utilize them, other Samurai may feel it is dishonorable or cheap? both Cube Jagers and Infimarers are medical units and from the Cube Jagers fluff it may have to do with the need of a rapid cube extraction than for actual combat, but since you have it on you why not use it?
     
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    By breakdown of faction's units with access to mono:

    Pan-O: 1
    Yu Jing: 3
    JSA: 3
    Ariadna: 0
    Haqq: 0
    Nomads: 0
    CA: 2 4
    Aleph: 2 (1 CCW 1 Mines)
    Tohaa/Spiral: 0
    O-12: 1
    Mercs: 3

    In a game with literally hundreds of units we have a grand total of 17 that can take Mono ammo in any form. That to me doesn't scream widespread at all.

    Seriously if your opponent actually commits to playing a Cube Jager and then you allow it to walk up to something expensive and stab it your opponent has frankly earned that kill it's such an unlikely prospect to be allowed to happen. You might as well complain about rolling 5 misses with your core linked team.

    You can definitely argue the Libertos is a balance problem. Cube Jagers or Miranda with Monofilament knives are not even close to being the same kind of issue.
     
    #599 Triumph, Apr 28, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Infinity is a combat scenario.
    You pull out all the stops, concilium conventions are an afterthought and you're pretty much in Human Sphere warcrime territory as soon as you start clicking an Infinity list together by default. Oniwabans wouldn't use a Mono CCW on a regular mission the same way a Ninja would attempt not to leave tracks. On the game board that restriction goes out of the window for both.
    For both Infirmarer and Cube Jäger Mono CCWs could pretty much accidentally destroy the Cube, they're not precision medical tools either. Sure they help chopping the Cube holding part of, but one tiny slip and tadaaaa, war criminal. Also let's not pretend Cube Jägers on Infinity tables make sense in a fluffy way (why would the guy be an active combatant and risk his own hide or actively fight?).

    For Tanko I'd mainly complain about the mechanical impact. They overshadow Domaru, who are better at winning the FTF but have trouble finishing the job. Tanko with the ability to remove whatever they hit instantly while cheaper and better at shooting step on their toes more than a bit. Not to claim Neko doesn't do the same to Domaru.

    It's similar to the acknowledged why take a Tik when you can have Toni problem?
    And we know how what CB though would be a good solution for that one.
    So.... is this where I ask you to start counting the Profiles with Jammers?
    Maybe compare the relative increase instead of the absolute? Just a suggestion, since you're definitely putting in effort.
     
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