And this would imply that every non linked, non MSV-2 trooper right now is "bait for smoke + MSV 2" ... which is ... well ... That's my only hope right now, but even if it works, it only means, I'll be "forced" to play Nomads (or any other hacking heavy fraction like Vanilla CA) throughout N4, cause all the other proposed ways to handle fully linked MSV2 pieces are just more than cumbersome and not fun. Like I already said ... linking MSV2+ pieces brings nothing positive to the game. There could be a hard cap, like "No Burst 6 in the game." "No MSV2+ in a Fireteam: Core" "No (full) Camo in a Fireteam" "No Fireteams where 1 member is more expense than the other 4 together." aso.
the only factions that would get actively screwed would be Ariadna, a couple of the merc companies, Tohaa and maybe SP, Everyone else can leverage a half decent hacker to break a team with out impacting the army overly much. Also as the mechanic is getting overhauled taking a random AHD may not be as big of an investment as it currently is.
Yup. It's why I think a 'Causes target to fail a Coherency check at the Conclusion of the Order' is an ideal effect for an AHD. It provides a temporary enabling effect with widespread utility, which is what hacking should ideally do.
Na, I doubt this would be enough. It doesn't solve the problem of the defensive Min-Maxing-Fireteams or the linked MSV2-Towers. They hardly move and mostly do nothing in the active turn. And to get them into repeater range is challenging as well.
Honestly, few factions have trouble getting defensive links into Hacking range. Marker state Dep Reps / AHDs are hardly uncommon, and AD AHDs are very commonly available. Both of those can usually get within 8" of a defensive Fireteam outside of LOF. They're just uncommon choices. The issue is what to do once you get them there? At the moment, very little: so it's usually not worth bothering. The result is that people don't build for it and don't exploit the opportunities that do exist. This means that it happens rarely in the wild. Essentially, at the moment, the problem is that the occasions when it's worthwhile to make the effort are relatively rare and unpredictable, so you're better off building a different approach into your list. OTOH, if you know you're going to face a Min-Maxed HI+LI core, an AD AHD or a Infil Dep Rep + AHD combo isn't a bad solution: Repeater, Carbonite + Core-linked LI ML (or any similar bad FTF high lethality weapon) will ruin an ORC's or HaiDao MSR's day in ~5 orders (2 to deploy Repeater, 1 to Carbonite, 1 to kill, 1 spare) which for a no to low risk approach of taking out a ~40-50pt HI is quite good. The fact Nomad AD Dep Reps are 0.5SWC is criminal: it directly undermines this sort of approach. And it's not a change I'd implement on it's own. But it is absolutely a change that opens up one more option for dealing with defensive cores.
The difference is that you aren't relying on them to be able to ARO, oftentimes, and given the cost in opportunity and points of a fireteam-based reactive piece, being able to take it out in a fairly low-risk way would be worse than doing the same to a lower-cost solo piece.
So, before linked MSV2-ARO-pieces became the big deal, all ARO choices (TR-Bots, Sineater, Yan Huo aso.) were "bait for smoke + MSV 2"? And even if they were, was this ... "dumb as hell"? Or to put it in other words: Why do Fireteams have to be better ARO Turrets than dedicated ARO-pieces?
It's not luck: that's a generous assessment of the median order count to Carbonite and then attack an ORC or similar HI. But sure, budget 6 orders: that doesn't change the utility at "doable and a lower risk option than most alternatives". 2 Orders = 21" (12“ movement + 1" Repeater + 8" ZOC) should be sufficient to get the ORC into Hacking Area, or 24" for an SK AHD 1 Order + Spare = ~60% odds to WIP13 Carbonite vs WIP12 Reset, and an opportunity to do it again (most failures do not offer the opportunity to Guts) 1 Order = >75% odds to do 2W with an Alg ML in a Core (but on a failure they'll go Prone), >35% odds to do 3
Yes. He's discussing whether that is desirable and/or necessary given other dedicated ARO options do not have SSL2 and are relatively OK. I'm implying that I don't like SSL2. I have no real idea how to fix it. I just recognise that it's the skill that makes linked AROs so mechanically powerful. Perhaps make Surprise Shot an Entire Order skill but have it and Surprise Attack work vs Fireteams. Also, get rid of the pseudo-360 Visor of SSL2. That should be an overall nerf to marker states, a buff to manouevre and a nerf to Fireteam AROs.
No, he's talking about the jump that occurred when the Kamau sniper core and similar core fireteams started showing up, which isn't relevant to what you're talking about.
It's funny that you know better what I am talking about, than I am myself. Indeed I was "discussing whether that is desirable and/or necessary given other dedicated ARO options do not have SSL2 and are relatively OK." like @inane.imp said. Or better: They were doing okay back then, before linked MSV2-or-minmaxed-ARO-pieces took their role. And no, the Fireteam doesn't deserve Special protection because it's expensive. A KoJ plus 4 fusiliers costs more than a Neurocinetics Yan Huo, right, but delivers 4 additional orders and is usable in the active turn. And a linked Kamau sniper is just straight better than a Sineater MSR. Both have mimetism. Both have Burst 2-ARO, both have BS13. But the Kamau gets (while being less expensive, given that his cheerleaders amortise themselves with giving their orders): SSL2, MSV2 (effectively MSV3 when linked), effectively 360° Visor, +3 BS, not talking about Shock Immunity and Stealth. And the question stays: Is this desirable? Does it bring something positive to the game? If they wanted to up the ARO-game, wasn't it a bit much?
You had a poor way of expressing it, in that case. Anyway, you seem to be conflating fireteams in general with the Kamau MSR + 4 Fusiliers. I think the latter is a problem, whereas the former isn't, and a lot of people are disingenuously using the general dislike of the latter to promote their own disdain for the former.
I think a statement like this needs some qualifications. I think SSL2 desperately needs a rework, what are some specific issues you have with it in terms of Fireteams? Which is true. They also aren't paying an extra 40 points to not be bait though, unlike the weakest linked units. @Hecaton I just want to point out it's funny that as I was catching up on the thread, I saw these two points as needing to be addressed, only to see that as I scrolled down the page, you had already quoted and address them.
No one is saying they "have to" be better, and remember for much of the game's life, they haven't been. A Q-Drone with Assisted Fire is still better both actively and reactively than a Fireteam of line troopers from almost any army. The argument here is one of investment -- a unit that costs 70 points should generally outperform one that costs 30. A fireteam is no difference -- if I'm reducing the flexibility of my army by choosing to play a sectorial, and investing at least 70 points into something I expect to use for AROs, then yeah, I should get my 70 points of performance out of it. A Sin-Eater that costs have as much as a Kamau link should perform about half as well. No one here is defending the overperforming fireteams, just that fireteams in general shouldn't be punished for the fact that some fireteams overperform.
Mostly my dislike of SSL2 is parochial. I can see that it's useful in limiting the dominance of Marker states and BS Attacks through ZVZs. I mostly agree those functions are actually useful to retain even if they directly negatively impact the viability of my preferred list comps. Which is why I don't really have good ideas on how to 'fix' it. I think making Surprise Shot and Entire Order Skill opens up options as it means that Fireteams don't need to worry about reducing the dominance of Marker states.
Entirely possible. What's with my KoJ ML +4fusiliers vs. Yan Huo Neurocinetics example? The Yan huo costs more than the KoJ. Yes, the KoJ "needs" 4 Fusiliers, but they deliver 4 orders for 10 points each. The same they did like ... forever. So these 40 points are covered. But additionally they deliver: 360° Visor, SSL2, BS+3. And it is usable on the active. So ... you get way more performance than you pay for. Same for the Sineater vs. Kamau. Sineater costs more than Kamau. His cheerleaders deliver orders, so they amoritised themselves. So all the nice little gimmicks are given for free to the Kamau. But I am repeating myself. I am with you if fireteams would only receive 1 order for the whole Team. Then it really would be an Investment in Performance. Right now you get the performance on top for free.
You're not spending 80/1.5 points for an ARO piece, you're spending 80/1.5 points for an ARO piece, 5 orders, 4 extra bodies that can perform lesser AROs in other directions, at least one extra body that can push buttons. Once you water the ARO ability down with what other abilities you get, the Sin Eater starts looking like the bigger ARO investment quite quickly. Lots of people play ISS and pay 33/0.5 for 5 orders and never use their Kuang Shi for anything but their orders... the long range ARO component of your Varuna Fusilier link is roughly speaking only worth 32/1.5, with the Fireteam inflating it beyond its value. So, arguably, if you spent 80 points and only expect to ARO with them, you're choosing to forgo to use whatever else extra value you would get from the Fireteam, kind of like deploying a Sin Eater to only defend your deployment zone when playing Unmasking. Does it have value? Yes, but you're not using it to the full effect. Now, the whole point of a Fireteam is to inflate each member beyond their original performance to compensate for both forcing you to put more miniatures in a tighter space with more restricted movement and for the loss of variety. In addition to this, usually a Fireteam also gets X times more expensive where X is the number of members and Fireteams also tend to be restricted to specific troops which reduces the list variety a bit further. So maybe Kamau Wildcard was a mistake or maybe Fusilier Core is the mistake here, but I'd definitely argue that both combined makes for a far too cost effective and strong ARO (with the long range active turn potential being very powerful as well).
