1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Link-Teams Hit By Template Weapons.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by scott581, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. scott581

    scott581 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    18
    Hello fellow rules searchers, I have a weird one that happened today.

    A dakini link team is hiding behind a crate. Three are in a straight line, a fourth is off to the side.

    A little S1 puppet-tactica puppet with a shotgun runs to the side of the crate. The dakini off by itself can draw LoS, as can the first dakini in the line. The other two dakinis are out of ZoC and their LoS is blocked by the first dakini in the line.

    The two dakinis with LoS both choose to shoot. The remaining two dakinis do NOT have an ARO and do nothing. (Remember, this is a fireteam.)

    The puppet fires a shotgun blast at the first dakini in the line and scores two hits, covering the other two dakinis behind it with the template.

    The first dakini in the line makes an opposed shooting roll against the puppet. The dakini off by itself makes an unopposed shooting roll.

    The two dakinis under the template did not have an ARO at all before, and now choose to dodge a template fired from out of LoS. (With at least a -3 for being a remote, and possibly another -3 for the non-LoS dodge if they no longer have sixth sense.)

    Fireteam rules problem:
    If/when are these two dakinis allowed to choose a dodge ARO, as the rest of the team chose to shoot, but these two dakinis did not have an ARO until they were hit by the template?

    When did the link team break? There were only four in this example, but would the team have been allowed a five-member bonus when the others shot had there been more? When does sixth sense end in this case? All simultaneous, afterall...

    What am I missing?

    Relevant Link-Team description from the wiki:
    In the Reactive Turn, all the Fireteam members have their own ARO to any Order declared in that member's LoF or ZoC. However, the declared ARO must be the same for all of the reactive members, which is called the Fireteam's ARO.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,804
    Likes Received:
    8,727
    You've got the placement of the shotgun template timing slightly wrong.

    The template is placed upon Declaration, not after rolls so it will be

    1st Skill, Puppetactica moves in view of lead Dakini.

    1st ARO, lead Dakini and Wayward Declares BS Attack

    2nd Skill, Puppetactica declared BS Attack, template is placed immediately here and touches 3 Dakini.

    2nd ARO, the 2 "hidden" Dakini now get to ARO due to being touched by the template, if they choose to Dodge then you have to choose who drops from the Fireteam (2 Daks declared BS, 2 declared Dodge so it's your choice which is the majority ARO) this is where they would lose their bonuses.

    Finally measurements are taken and rolls are made.
     
    #2 colbrook, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,804
    Likes Received:
    8,727
    Rules reference
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Fireteam_Integrity

    • Only in the Reactive Turn, if the trooper declares any type of ARO different from the Fireteam's ARO, the one declared by all the Fireteam members.
    When any Fireteam member declares an ARO different from the Fireteam's ARO, then the players must consider the Fireteam's ARO to be the one declared by more than half of the declaring ARO Fireteam members.
    For example, in a five member Fireteam where only three of them declare an ARO, if two members declare one kind of ARO, and the third one declares a different ARO, this member will automatically leave the Fireteam.
    When there is no majority of ARO, for example, if the three members each declare a different ARO, then the player can choose which one is considered to be the Fireteam's ARO, while the other two members will automatically leave the Fireteam.


    In any of the above cases, the trooper stops being part of the Fireteam the moment the Order is declared
     
    chromedog likes this.
  4. scott581

    scott581 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    18
    This is the part that confuses me, though. Do the dakinis get AROs when the template is placed over them, before they are actually hit by anything? What if the shotgun misses? Then they get an ARO without LoS, ZoC, or being under a template?

    Dodging Template Weapons

    Template Weapons can be Dodged with a PH Roll.

    A trooper may attempt to Dodge a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker, by passing a PH-3 Roll.

    The Template of a Deployable Weapon can also be Dodged by passing a PH-3 Roll.
     
  5. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    474
    Likes Received:
    456
    As mentioned above, they shotgun template is placed when the shot is announced but before any dice are rolled. At this point, the "hidden" daikini are granted and declare their AROs along with the two who have LoF. It's one step, not two stages.

    At resolution, if the shotgun actually misses then they still execute their declared AROs.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,804
    Likes Received:
    8,727
    You place the template down immediately on declaration, before rolls to hit are made precisely so you know if the Dakinis get to Dodge or not.

    Updated my first post in bold to be clearer
     
    chromedog likes this.
  7. scott581

    scott581 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    18
    Dodging Template Weapons

    Template Weapons can be Dodged with a PH Roll.

    A trooper may attempt to Dodge a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker, by passing a PH-3 Roll.

    The Template of a Deployable Weapon can also be Dodged by passing a PH-3 Roll.


    So I suppose that the above entry from the infinity wikipedia would be better served altering the second line above to read:

    "A trooper may declare a Dodge when covered by a Template Weapon without LoF to the attacker, by passing a PH-3 Roll."
     
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    1,604
    Perhaps, but it's not really any different than getting to dodge a normal shot to your face before knowing whether or not they hit you with it. As stated before, the rules force you to place the template upon declaration of the attack precisely so that you get that option.
     
    Section9, Mahtamori and chromedog like this.
  9. Gunmage

    Gunmage Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    269
    Likes Received:
    254
    Remember that placement of the impact template is not predicated on a succesful attack! Even if attack is cancelled altogether (for example, because the attacker found out he is hitting an ally and somehow couldn't place the template to not touch them), troopers who were under the template at declaration still roll their dodges.
     
  10. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,278
    Likes Received:
    1,213
    Another key thing to remember is the Dakini that drop out due to their ARO choices will be able to rejoin the fireteam at the beginning of your next turn. Provided the link leader isn't killed or the link isn't fully broken somehow.

     
  11. JudgeDee7

    JudgeDee7 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've had this situation come up too quite a few times. I was under the impression that the troopers dodging the boarding shotgun were rolling FtF against the rolls made by the player firing the boarding shotgun, since the firing of the boarding shotgun is directly affecting them. Is this not the case?
     
  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,294
    Likes Received:
    1,604
    That is correct: the rolls are F2F. Criticals don't count (as criticals) against anyone who is not the primary target, however.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,459
    Likes Received:
    8,026
    They are still criticals as far as the Face to Face is concerned, but the effects (such as automatic damage) of said criticals only applies to the main target.
     
  14. JudgeDee7

    JudgeDee7 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks! One last question, to make sure that i'm thinking of all this right- so let's say, as described above, that the puppet declares his shots against a dakini that has LoS to him, with another dakini nearby that also has LoS also declaring a shot against the puppet. Let's say this time, however, that the template also touches the dakini shooting back.
    So I know the rolls between the puppet and the dakini the puppet declares an attack against are FtF, and that the dakini rolling higher than the puppet will cancel the boarding shotgun shots. However, are the rolls between the puppet and the second dakini who is also shooting back FtF? Recall that this dakini had LoS when the puppet came around the corner and shot as its ARO, but was not directly targeted by the puppet; the template just happened to also touch him. If, for instance, this second dakini rolls lower than the puppet's to hit rolls on the first dakini, will its shots on the puppet be cancelled?
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,821
    Likes Received:
    4,669
    Yeah, it'll all be ftf. Say the puppet rolls its dice and gets a 12 as its highest, and then the dakinis roll their dice and the primary target gets a 14 and the secondary target (caught in the template) gets a 9. The primary target will avoid the shot and the secondary target will be hit.
     
    JudgeDee7 likes this.
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,281
    Likes Received:
    10,697
    No, they aren’t Criticals at all against the other targets - only on the main target.

    Yes. Everyone under the Impact Template Weapon will be making FtF Rolls against it, assuming they’re doing something that affects the attacker (for example BS Attack) or the attacker’s action (for example Dodge).
     
    Belgrim and JudgeDee7 like this.
  17. JudgeDee7

    JudgeDee7 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    So even if the main target isn't hit, (say beats the puppet in FtF rolls) the other targets under the template still do?
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,281
    Likes Received:
    10,697
    Yes. You roll to hit using the MODs for the main target, then compare the rolls separately against each individual target.

    See the second and third Effects: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Impact_Template_Weapons
    • The trooper who declared the Attack compares this Roll against each enemy trooper affected by the Template individually. Each enemy trooper affected by the template resolves his Face to Face Roll with the Template user independent of each other; the Face to Face Roll of one affected enemy trooper does not affect the Face to Face Rolls of the others (See the example below).
    • The attacker must designate a main target, from who all MODs applied to his Roll will be determined. As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template.
    This example should also be very useful: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Templ...mplate_example._All_targets_react_by_Shooting.
     
    JudgeDee7 likes this.
  19. JudgeDee7

    JudgeDee7 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2019
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
  20. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,558
    Likes Received:
    4,892
    Looks like this was updated in the April 2019 FAQ. Mahtamori's comment was consistent with the previous forum ruling.