1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Limited Insertion 12 orders

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by armazingerz, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Berjiz

    Berjiz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2018
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    47
    I think the fundamental problem is the way units are priced and that CBs formula does not seem to account very well for synergies. Since the formulas are additivy instead of relative this means the problem is going to most obvious on cheap units, the frenzy discount matters more on a cheap warband than HI for instance. It becomes an even bigger problem when some of these discounts for drawbacks aren't even drawbacks on some units, like SMGs or frenzy.

    As Superfluid said, regular orders are probably too cheap in some cases as well. Kuang Shi are just crazy for instance.

    It's also about roadblocks, a more spammy list is going to have a lot of cheap roadblocks that need orders to be removed. The difficulity of removing them doesn't really matter either, what matters is that orders used to remove a camo marker, a warband, etc is an order that isn't used for something more useful.

    But yeah, uninspired mission design is a large part of the problem. I'm not sure if buttion pressing itself is the issue, but rather the random element of the wip roll combined with too many buttons that causes it.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    7,205
    Likes Received:
    6,535
    Yuuuup. Pricing scheme is all out of whack, and CB seems content to keep it that way.
     
    #22 Hecaton, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
    theradrussian likes this.
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    Kuang Shi are crazy indeed. Crazy expensive. Comparatively. Ex Imp discount? What Ex Imp discount? Thank you, mr Chain Rifle! (I highly doubt anyone would choose more than one BSG KS except to try and prove me wrong. Oh, and they do get an Ex Imp discount, but it's tiny compared to any other unit I am aware of)
     
    DFW Ike likes this.
  4. armazingerz

    armazingerz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    198
    I dislike Kuang Shis because they seem to fix a general overprice along the faction. That makes you play with Kuang Shis or play handicaped.
     
    Smiler likes this.
  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    4,262
    Likes Received:
    8,073
    Fair point there; I'd never really looked at the BSG profile or noticed how much of an upgrade the Celestial Guard BSG gets for a mere 1 point. But I think the point is that you have to look at units holistically, and Kuang Shi are very good for what they do and what they provide your army.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,148
    Likes Received:
    9,666
    While I agree that CB's price formula doesn't deal well with synergies, I don't believe that it is strictly additive. Some stats apparently make other skills much more expensive (I'm thinking 2W and Camo/Infiltration, for example), based on the kerfluffle with the Zhencha and Liu Xing.



    Yeah, missions are still an issue. We're in a much better place than we were when the game started, when the only mission was kill-em-all, then we got Lost Post (bigass Zero Viz zone in the center of the table) and Beachhead (beach defenses, additional SWC to defender) about a year later.

    Need to work on some more interactive missions. Gotta get the d20 Modern roleplaying campaign settings out, and my old Deluxe RECON rules, to come up with some nice scenarios that both sides are interacting over.
     
  7. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    851
    Just bring a 10 model list and strategos L3. Bam. 12 orders.

    Still doesnt help me since I play factions without CoC and as such have to budget 3-4 orders for a xenotech, given my roll...
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,572
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    10 regular non impetuous model + strategos level 3 mean 11 orders, not 12. You need to add something else to reach 12
     
  9. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2018
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    851
    Bah, brainfarted to LT lvl 2.

    So close.... :D
     
  10. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    738
    Likes Received:
    1,216
    I think it was @Teslarod who reported on the LI experiment where ~70% of the LI vs LI games were decided on who goes first as there simply wasn't enough you could do to limit an alpha strike or recover from the damage once sustained.
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    *with equally skilled players aware of the fact and the guy going second trying his best not to get stomped.
    There was another group who ran the same experiment and came to the same conclusion on their own as well.
     
    #31 Teslarod, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    1,791
    IMO: just take them then and try to compensate this somewhere else. You have an average of 30 pts per trooper, and a lot of things are easily over that.
    In HB that was mentioned, take those Asawiras, take those Ghazis. The latter will still perform better than most of your average-costed stuff, I'd dare to say even per model, not even per point, especially with all the expensive (which often means vulnerable to EM) stuff running around.

    I don't think HB is hurting in button department. Their tools are nothing fancy, but aren't bad.

    It's pick your poison, basically. Almost every mission, including Annihilation, has its unique degeneracy.

    Same can be said about game formats, I recon.
     
  13. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

    Joined:
    May 23, 2018
    Messages:
    1,714
    Likes Received:
    1,355
    Just gonna toss two rusted up cents into the mix here...

    I like the rules added for ''Limited Insertion'' ( Single group. ) lists in general, I think the fact they got that immunity to the ''Reduce Order pool by 2'' is a nice nudge into getting them to become a viable option all around, it helps alleviate the possibility of feeling like you already set yourself on the back foot simply for ''not having taken a second combat group''. is a good thing IMO.

    Now, I will also agree that this gets a bit murky when it comes to single group lists VS other single group lists. And for that, I only have one idea or compromise to improve... why not make it so single group lists can't have their orders reduced UNLESS it's another single group list doing the reduction? Like ''10 orders VS 15 orders? Player with 15 orders can't reduce the 10 order players orders. 10 vs 10? They can do the reduction.'' Maybe that'd avoid making the gap between single group and multi-group lists while making the initiative roll a bit less influential in single group list on single group list fights?
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation