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Lieutenant and FairPlay

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkaon1125, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    First and foremost, I wouldn't say that a trooper's potential cost or SWC is open information - you don't need to volunteer it. I would say it is information outside the game. Next consider these three Ghulam that your opponent is asking about when it comes to costs. This is why that information is private (and so that it's not too easy or obvious to calculate exactly how many points are missing on the table)

    GHULAM Lieutenant HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
    GHULAM HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 20)
    HAFZA Heavy Rocket Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 18)

    Yes, that's three Ghulams with HMG. You're not required to tell your opponent their cost, but if you do you are required to not be dishonest beyond what the game makes allowance for. If you choose to answer with a points value, the answer you should give in all three cases is 20 points, 1 SWC. It is your choice to give additional information such as that the LT HMG is cheaper in SWC, but you don't need to tell your opponent that nor do you need to identify which model is the LT HMG.

    Nor do you need to tell your opponent that you've got 256 points and 4 SWC on the table that they can see. That's going a bit far in my opinion, even against a newbie (who is better served knowing that there can and will be units hidden as AD or Camo).
     
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  2. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Each weapon/skill/equipment model of Riot Grrrls has a specific cost, so all your opponent has to do to now how much your Grrl cost is ask the equipement and check army

    => You have 1 Grrl with Missile, 1 with spit and 1 with harris skill => total cost of the FT is 4.5SWC and 97points. It will take your opponent 30 sec to know it with army

    Then what's the point of not telling him the cost ) ? If asked the question of the cost of the above FT I will likely answer 4.5 SWC and rougly 100 points and my opponent will be happy with that
     
  3. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Again: the wiki says, troopers cost and SWC are private. I always interpret it that way, that they are ... private. Not that I have to say my 1 Riot Grrls (I don't have to take 3) costs this much or that much, but that they are private.

    That I can calculate anything with army doesn't change that its meant to be private as I read it.

    If they are not private, I don't understand the wiki, or what @ijw meant, with what he said.
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Just what I said. The points cost of 'an' Alguacil with Combi Rifle is not Private Information. It's right there in the rulebook, and is part of the game system. It's literally outside the classification of Open/Private information, in the same way that the range bands of a Combi Rifle isn't Open/Private Information, or knowing how the Stealth rule works.

    The points cost and SWC of the specific Alguacil with Combi Rifle that is in your Army List is Private Information.
     
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  5. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Okay. And if we take the Riot Grrl, then the fact that 'an' Riot Grrl and 'the' Riot Grrl in my list are always the same doesn't contradict with the "troopers cost and SWC are private"-Part?

    So I say "Normally a Riot Grrl with Spitfire costs 2 SWC and 34 points, but I am not going to tell you, what 'my' Riot Grrl with Spitfire here on the table, costs."?

    Interesting, I never Interpret it this way.
     
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  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    think about this other thing:

    We are playing with the extra soldiers of fortune, with points beign public info, and I say: "this alguacile is 25 points". Then you know that alguacile is in reality sforza.

    You have the access to know that an alguacile with combi rifle and no habilities is a 10-points dude, that can be lieutenant for 1 SWC, but you don't know the exact cost of him, just the possibility
     
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  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    This is the correct interpretation.

    For other factions it can get every weirder, for example your opponent could ask what the points cost of your Fusilier in Vanilla PanO is, and you would respond truthfully that a Fusilier is 10 points.

    You would be under no compulsion to tell your opponent that this particular Fusilier right here actually costs 57 points and 2 SWC, due to it being a Sepulchre Knight using Holo1!
     
  8. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    I find logic in that. And the comparison to rangebands is actually good. Weapon description is not in courteasy list, and checking rangeband of the weapon is totally ok, and no one would argue, that one need to know it without any asistance.
     
  9. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    I don't, but that doesn't matter, because if it's meant to be this way, then it is this way.

    The utility of private costs and SWC is pretty slim then. Only in exceptional cases does it matter at all.
     
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  10. Camden Leisure Pirate

    Camden Leisure Pirate Best of the best of what's left

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    I think this argument is being twisted to suit one side, comparing weapon range bands and special rules to your lists possible Lt's is chalk to cheese, I feel under no obligation to tell my opponents what the possible Lt profiles are in my actual list or army wide, it's metagaming to use army or any other such external source to try and ascertain information not provided on the courtesy list as it exists outside of the game environment and allows you to gain knowledge which you can use to manipulate the game, common rules and the disclosure of revealed private information should be enough, whether or not you think meta gaming is a bad thing is up to you.
     
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  11. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    @Spitfire_TheCat I didn't say I support that, but I find this argument fair.
    I still won't allow to check army/book for anything else than your own list or rules, not oponents units. At least on events I run. And at least until it becomes clear in the rules that it is ok to do so.
     
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  12. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Or, you know, just don't say anything

    "How much does this RG cost?"
    "That's private information"
    "Ok I'll just look it up"
    "Be my guest"(friendly game)/"Be my guest, but please don't take too long, as we are on a timer and that could be considered intentional slow play"(In a tourney)
     
  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Isn't 'checking the rules' always allowed?
    And aren't the army profiles part of the rules?
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Please note that I am saying that unit entries are neither Private information nor Open Information - there is no obligation to tell your opponent who the possible LT options are. But at the same time, they aren't Private, and are part of the structure of the game.

    However I'm confused as to what counts as an 'external source' - does that include the rulebooks?
     
  15. Camden Leisure Pirate

    Camden Leisure Pirate Best of the best of what's left

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    @ijw Well id argue that the army lists come under appendices and as such are not directly the rules of the game, nothing in the army lists section relating to your opponents list is required for you to play the game which isn't on the courtesy list or which you won't tell them when private information becomes public.

    I really don't have anything riding on this as it isnt something that comes up in my games but I don't think it's fair to say someone is being a bad sport by not revealing this information. This last bit wasn't directed at anyone in particular btw!

    Owh and thanks for all your work on the wiki @ijw :kissing_heart:
     
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  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    How is it metagaming ? Infinity is a game of strategy, not a game of memory.

    Rules does not forbid or force you to reveal information freely available in army that your opponent doesn't know by heart. It's a question of sportsmanship.

    I don't want to win because my opponent didn't know something and couldn't check in army nor do I want to loose time having my opponent checking army.

    If I'm asked the cost of one of my trooper, I will give it (as long at it doesn't impact the game, like the SWC cost of an alguacil lieutenant)
    In the same way, if I ask my oponent : how much point your iguana is worth ? I will expect him to answer too (at least roughly like « 70 something »).
     
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  17. Camden Leisure Pirate

    Camden Leisure Pirate Best of the best of what's left

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    Wheres the strategy in gaming your opponent by working out the info you dont have by using army? I don't quite understand why people need anything beyond what is on the courtesy list, stats, equipment and abilities are all listed, it's pretty easy to look at those factors and decide how valuable something is, you only want to know points or swc so you can ascertain some hidden value like troops off table/marker state or Lt, matches that use points killed for scoring is exactly why that info should be hidden so your opponent has to engage and can't kill one mini with spec fire turn 3 after playing denial the whole game, it makes it a gamble rather than a certain outcome and keeps your opponent in the game. If you've been playing years or read army every night then I accept you may well have some edge but as we see people make mistakes with rules regularly so it's safe to assume they won't remember the costs for what, 300+ profiles?
     
  18. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    Let me just quote from the wiki (emphasis added):

    "Private Information is information you can keep to yourself that your opponent cannot ask about. Your Private Information remains secret until a specific game event forces you to disclose it."

    The whole section is specific about the player's list, not about the unit entries in general. Your opponent is still allowed to guess, recall from memory or simple look up what information in your list may hide behind being private. There is no mention that you may not use the army builder in game. It is even encouraged as it offers order management and casualties. But you are not obliged to confirm those speculations about private information. A specifically intersting part of the game is exactly this metagaming: getting your opponent to make the wrong guess :).

    Sure...one could argue that at that point you might as well just reveal point costs and stuff...but still you don't have to (personally I usually do so, as I really don't care).


    Just curious: how do you check for that? Do you prevent people from "checking their mails"? Do you follow them to the bathroom or do they have to hand over their phones? Forgive me being sarcastic here, but I can't see any reasonable way to stop that from happening.
     
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  19. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    because one of them is a specop holo and i completely forgot what is the actual cost of a real spitfire riot grrl. won't happen often with nomad (and not at all if they removed holo in the revised specop), but when i play any new faction, like haqqislam, and i'm asked who are the possible Lt, I don't even know myself. I know which Lt i picked up, i forgot what were the other Lt option in the faction.
     
  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    If you don't remember the actual cost of the mini or who are the possible lieutenant option and your opponent ask, there is no harm in saying so.


    When someone use hidden deployement/AD/fake camo marker/holoechoes, he is trying to hide something and when you are count point/swc/trooper in the group you are trying to discover it.

    Both are part of the game, not some grey area or "gaming your opponent".

    I have a good memory for number and 3.5 years of tournament experience so I know roughly the cost of most trooper in the game (like "a sukeul is 30-40 points depending on loadout and heavy weapon cost 1.5 SWC"), so most of the time I don't need army as a support.

    I don't see why I should not allow my opponent to check point/swc/LT in army or answer him when he ask a reasonable question. I lose nothing, speed up the game and build some goodwill. These are only positive for both me and my opponent.

    I have paid a lot of attention to the counter argument here and out of some word like "metagming", "gaming the opponent"... I don't see anything that is worth looksing goodwill and fair play