1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Lieutenant and FairPlay

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkaon1125, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    290
    Likes Received:
    392
    I tell people what the lieutenants can be if they ask. Some people feel that it should be public and ask me, some don't and they don't. Personally I side on the public side - reduce the cognitive load of the game so people don't have to get gamey with the army app etc. But I don't really want to push that on other people.
     
    Musterkrux, Sedral, Alphz and 4 others like this.
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes Received:
    2,168
    This. The game has enough opportunities for clever play and deceit without hoping your opponent doesn't know your list all enough to Target your super obvious lt or miss the camo ARO piece.

    It's just so much better to provide the tactical information your opponent would have if they spent an extra minute walking to your side/searching army/repeatedly asking you probing questions.

    I don't enjoy games where my opponent makes a huge blunder because they couldn't see that repeater behind a tall building or an another ARO which was under a bridge.
     
    Xeurian, Sedral, Alfy and 7 others like this.
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,094
    Likes Received:
    9,568
    Yeah, I need to start making more 3d camo markers. Though most of my 'basic' 3d markers are papercraft boxes. 'Solid Snake' boxes.

    In those cases, I'm willing to let them take back the last order (or maybe more, if there weren't any AROs leading up to the "Wait, WHAT?!?" moment.
     
    Xeurian and Musterkrux like this.
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    514
    I have played several games using the WYSIWYG, everything represented and 3d marker tokens. Even with all of that, there were doubts for some oponents, because some people cannot diferenciate some weapons, and helping them clear those doubts in our game is partly my responsabilty
     
  5. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    601
    Hmmm
    We seem to reach quite interesting area.

    I guess some games looks like this. I'm exaggerating of course, to get some smiles on readers face:

    "I would like to spend my order and do..."
    "are you perfctly aware that you might be seen by those troopers, and I will ARO with ML and Flash pulse?"
    "yes"
    "But on the other hand I do have holotroopers available in my army, so it can be just a combi disguised as ML. Ok, you get that?"
    "yes"
    "and you are aware that you are getting closer to this camo marker?"
    "yess"
    "and that camo marker can be a mine, or one of my troopers with shotgun?"
    "yeesss"
    "and I'll be in better rangeband than you?
    "wrr"
    "and if you intend to go this way, this will be less order effective than this way"
    "wrrr"
    "and if you plan to kill this possible LT, than I must tell you, that there are 3 others possible LT, and the way they are deployed that one you are trying to reach is least probable one?
    "can you let me play?"
    "Ok, Ok. Jeez! I just want you to have all the information you should have so we have a fair game. And btw, my army have AD troopers, so moving this one will expose you to flanking by such trooper. Just so you know."

    Hove fun pointing down how wrong I am :)
     
    Belgrim, Tourniquet, ik3rian and 2 others like this.
  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    754
    Likes Received:
    773
    I believe it is standard practice, even when going full WYSIWYG. Especially when this is an army you don't see everyday - i personnally would have trouble identifying tohaas.
     
    Lesh' and chromedog like this.
  7. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    162
    Well, the whole premise of the thread is whether or not to answer a question that has been asked, not forcefully impart anything. But hey, one should never let facts ruin a good joke.
     
    Alphz and Xeurian like this.
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,443
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    More simple, yesterday during a Countermeasure game (first game of a tournament), the classified were data scan/follow up/a third one I forgot
    My oponnent spend one order moving his datatracker securitate hacker in the direction of my HVT
    My oponnent spend a second order moving his datatracker securitate hacker in the direction of my HVT
    I ask him if he is sure of what he is doing as data scan target an enemy trooper and not the HVT
    He check, realise his mistake and we put back the hacker to his original position
     
    bladerunner_35, Xeurian and Nenyx like this.
  9. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2018
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    67
    I know that having your opponent check army builder every 30 sec could be annoying, but every now and then I have no problem with it.
    For me the only information you don't have to give to your opponent are the private ones.

    If someone ask me the price cost or SWC cost of a unit I answer, I would consider bad sportmanship doing the opposite. Same with other open informations. If a player can get an info from the army app or from me I don't see any reason for not telling him.
     
    Alfy likes this.
  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    382
    And this I don't understand. Why is this bad sportsmanship? If the info is meant to be public, why is it not printed on the Courtesy List? I myself would consider it bad sportsmanship if someone starts reverse engineering my list in army to calculate if and what troopers are missing / hidden.

    Oh, the reason for not telling him is: It's not meant to be open Information, because its not on the Courtesy List.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    5,329
    Likes Received:
    10,773
    Time for a reminder.

    Private Information is specific to the actual troopers and options chosen in your Army List.

    The points cost, SWC and options of a unit as a whole is not Private Information, in the same way that the rules of the game are not Private Information.
     
    Dragonstriker, BLOODGOD, Alfy and 2 others like this.
  12. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    239
    Likes Received:
    485
    The courtesy list is not all what your opponent is allowed to know...it's just what you are obliged to tell. I don't get why reverse engineering should be bad sportsmanship? What if I know my opponents faction in and out and can calculate the points from the top of my head? Is that bad sportsmanship as well? Or is there a difference to looking things up?
     
  13. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    779
    Likes Received:
    601
    the same way as I can eyeball distance or measure it... I can guess points value or calculate in armybuilder.
    there is a difference.
    But going down this way, we will reach intent play again, and we don't want to go this rabbit hole.
     
  14. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    382
    Interesting. Didn't have that on my Screen. Though then I don't understand why the Points and SWC are not printed on the Courtesy List. But okay.

    It's like counting cards while playing BlackJack or Skat. Some can, some can not, still it is not considered good sportsmanship to write down the cards that were already played. So yes, there is a difference. At least in my opinion.
     
    Belgrim and Nuada Airgetlam like this.
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    709
    Likes Received:
    514
    there have been some examples. If you see a kriza borak with mk12, you cannot know if he is lieutenant or not. But if you have access to his points costs, you can see 63 (no lieutenant) or 64 (lieutenant). That rule is for hiding that kind of info
     
  16. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    382
    I just checked the wiki:
    "These pieces of information are Private in Infinity: Your troopers' Cost and SWC."

    So what do you mean with "The points cost, SWC and options of a unit as a whole is not Private Information"?
    When I take ... say an Alguacil Forward Observer, what is Private and what is Open Information?
    Is it open Information that the Alguacils can cost from 10 to 18 Points and between 0 and 1,5 SWC? Or is it open that the Alguacil FO cost 12 Points, 0 SWC?

    I just want to get it correctly.
     
  17. Musterkrux

    Musterkrux Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    511
    My general heuristic is: 'If it's a question my opponent could answer for themselves with sufficient time and access to the Army Builder app, I can answer the question without reservation or delay if they ask me'.

    Examples:

    Q: 'Can/Do you have a Cutter in your list?'
    A1: 'No, you can see 4 SWC on the table, I cannot possibly have a Cutter.'
    A2: 'Maybe, there's about 2.5 SWC and 120-ish points off the table.'
    A3: 'Probably not, I can't give you a definitive point or SWC count on account of all of these camo markers hiding my pieces but reasonable assumptions mean I don't have the points free. However, it's not impossible.'

    Q: Who is/can be your Lieutenant?
    A1: 'It can be any of the following models that I have deployed...[point at models] ...noting that I also have access to Camo/Holoprojector/Whatever Lt options, as well...'
    A2: 'It could theoretically be any of these models, but between you and me, I've spent SWC that makes some of those options impossible, so it's got to be... [points at model] ...this guy.'

    Q: How many points do you have in the zone?
    A1: Well, I have three models in the zone that you can see and if they are all exactly what their profile says they are...87 points.
    A2: Of the three models you can see, that's 87-ish points. However, this camo marker might be in the zone and it could be a Mine or a model worth anything from 17 to 29 points. However, the camo marker can't be an X, because it Infiltrated and may only be a Y or Z. So, I have anything from 87-ish points through to 120-ish points in the zone, but don't trust my maths on that...

    Positive Disclosure, the following are statements I would make without being prompted by my opponent: Like the above, they are mostly just shortcuts for an opponent who has all the time in the world and access to the app. There is also consideration for drawing attention to noteworthy, impossible, and highly unconventional elements.

    "This model might look like an X but it cannot possibly be an X, because it has deployed outside of my deployment zone. It might be a Y or a Z."

    "I declare Move-Move, please note that the model moved 4" on the second Move skill, which would be illegal if it was actually the 4-2 model it currently looks like..."

    "This camo marker has deployed outside of my DZ, so it cannot be an X. However, it could be a Y, or a Z that has downgraded from TO to Camo, or possibly a mine deployed by a Minelayer-Z."

    "As you see the table, I currently have 7 SWC present. I do not have a +1 SWC option in my army but I do have access to Holoprojector level 1 or higher."

    "This model is a Minelayer and has 2 Mines in stock, please note the following Camo markers that appear to be be within 8..." OR "This model is a Minelayer but it currently has all three Mines in stock."
     
  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,443
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    General information that you can find in army are not private
    Specific information about your trooper SWC/point cost is private

    For example : I'm playing Vanilla Pano and I have Joan deployed.
    If I'm ask the SWC cost of joan, I will say "1 as lieutenant, 2 if not the lieutenant" => Can be found in army, not private
    If I'm ask the SWC cost of my joan, I will smile and give the previous answer

    I'm playing Vanilla Ariadna and I AD deploy Van Zant
    If I'm ask the cost of Van Zant, I will say "38, 39 with executive order" => Can be found in army, not private
    If I'm ask the SWC cost of my Van Zant, I will smile and give the previous answer

    I'm playing Vanilla Nomads and I have 3 alguaciles (basic 10 points model, 1 being lieutenant)
    If I'm ask the cost of the alguaciles, I will say "10 points, 1 SWC when lieutenant"
    If I'm ask the SWC cost of a specific Alguaciles, I won't answer
     
    #98 Arkhos94, Oct 28, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2018
    Messages:
    714
    Likes Received:
    858
    You must differenciate between an Alguacil and this Alguacil,
    because this Alguacil on the game table might or might not be the lieutenant.
    But an Alguacil is just one of the possible Algucil profiles,
    and those are not Private Information as they are part of the rules (army builder).

    So the question what are possible lieutenants for a sectorial isn't private information, it's part of the rules/army builder.
    Just the question which trooper actually is the lieutenant in your actual list on the table is Private Information.

    edit: ninjaed by @Arkhos94
     
    Musterkrux and Section9 like this.
  20. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2018
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    382
    Still doesn't sound right. Because not only the lieutenant is private but Cost and SWC as well.
    So is it "Alguacil cost between 10 and 18 Points and between 0 and 1,5 SWC."
    or is it "the FO Alguacil, which is this one, costs 0 SWC and 12 Points."

    If ist the latter, then I don't get: "These pieces of information are Private in Infinity: Your troopers' Cost and SWC."

    Maybe I should have taken another example, one without the posibility of being lieutenant, like Riot Grrls.

    But again, I don't have to understand everything.