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Lieutenant and FairPlay

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkaon1125, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you go back to the start of the thread, it was about mostly behaviour in a setting for beginners. And then the tournament crowd came in, and the conversation took a sharp turn. I really wished people would take the time to understand the context of a thread rather than jumping in with a "this is how tournaments must be played": there is no useful comparison between the 2 types of play.

    If Infinity would adopt one of the most fundamental principles of the MTG REGs, that would not happen anymore: both players must be responsible for maintaining the state of the game. Under this principle, your opponent is at fault for wilfully letting you use the wrong rangeland in the first place.
     
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  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Usually B, but especially in events it can be much harder to find a good way to roll back while maintaining a competitive game state - in which case more often A.
     
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  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what "the state of the game" means, but if it means a friendly and cooperative atmosphere I would say we already try to do that here. Isn't that already kinda part of the rule at the beginning of the book and about fairplay in the ITS doc ?

    Btw I will say usually a) and b), just to avoid the obvious argument that will happen if you choose c).
     
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    It means that both players should know how work both sides of the game. If one forgots to use one mandatory rule, the other has to remind him, be it in benefit or detriment of him. And if someone does a miss on that, is both players fault
     
  5. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely. Even in a friendly game among friendly people, there can be a competitive side: I'm still trying to win and beat you. In a game as complex as Infinity, with hidden information and importantly, bluffing an integral part of the game, this brings issues and disagreements about what is gaining a reasonable edge and what is unsportsmanlike.

    Both players being responsible for maintaining the state of the game means both players are responsible for ensuring the rules are followed: if your opponent misplays by not following the rules and you know it, you cannot take advantage of it and must mention it. It could be the other way round, and actually the RELs used to let you do exactly what was described by Arkhos. It was not considered to be mean-spirited, just playing the game.

    There are two different levels of RELs, to differentiate play in highly competitive international tournaments vs fun small shop tourneys, and a lot of players I know apply most of the lower level to games at home. Not to be strict (we usually allow retakes for one thing), but because it's a good common basis on the spirit of the game, not just the rules.

    I can give another example in parallel with the current discussion:

    In the communication section, the RELs define four type of information: Status, Free, Derived and Private. All 4 have a direct equivalent in Infinity.

    Status information is information that must be announced upon change and physically tracked by the affected player. This would be for example the number of wounds and the various statuses of models, or the score. Methods of tracking must be visible to all players.

    Free information is information to which all players are entitled access without contamination or omissions made by their opponents. This would include the exact name of any model, what turn it is, etc.

    Private information is information to which players have access only if they are able to determine it from the current visual game state or their own record of previous game actions. Infinity actually defines private information, this is straightforward.

    Derived information is information to which all players are entitled access, but opponents are not obliged to assist in determining and may require some skill or calculation to determine. This is where things get interesting (and germane to this thread). At tournament-level, there would be no question: finding the potential lieutenants is derived information (you can figure it out but it's not immediately available), it's a question of skill (memorisation in this case), and your opponent is under no obligation to reveal this information.

    But, "at Regular Rules Enforcement Level, all derived information is instead considered free." That is, unless you're playing a big tournament or your shop has decided that the harshest rules apply at all time, under such a setup, knowing the potential lieutenants is information available to all that must be given without misrepresentation or omission.

    I think Infinity could benefit a lot for having a document such as this. It's work, obviously, but it clears a lot of air.
     
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  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    This. The discussion was about new players that are learning Infinity and their forces. Not tournaments.
     
  7. Arkaon1125

    Arkaon1125 Active Member

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    Exactly. Sorry for having put up so much trouble with this post, i wanted to know what you guys suggest to become more confident with this situation. If there is something breaking rules or other.
     
  8. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    There is no trouble. Just a discussion between people with different opinion. So far nobody called anybody with bad names or accused the other of cheating (hope we can have more discussion like this).

    This REL thing is very interesting indeed.
     
  9. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    Since this is the rules forum, it's maybe worth pointing out that the references to whether lt options are public or private information are red herrings.

    The distinction between public and private info applies to what's on the table (and in your list but not yet on the table). "What lt options does Haqq have?" isn't private or public info, it's just general info about the world, like "where are the bathrooms in this game shop?" or "what paints did you use for that sweet colour scheme?" The rules don't speak to whether you have to answer general questions about the world, you decide based on your own judgment and sense of courtesy.

    As for whether it's courteous to ask or answer questions about lt options, I'd say it depends on the circumstances and is in any case subjective. You're free to do what you think best, and your opponent is free to think you're an asshole. But I have no horse in this race, I always run Saladin.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    How many Saladin is that, on a scale of 1 to 16? -.-;;
     
  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point. If "Saladin" is the plural form, I guess the singular must be "Salad."
     
  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That's not quite what I said, as per my last paragraph. I simply said that's what I would do (and many in my meta).

    If you are interpreting my comments about the different skill sets each requires as a judgement, well I didn't mean for it to come across that way.
     
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  13. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    While I think pulling open Army and rebuilding your opponent's list is bad form, I'm also hesitant to support too many broad questions. If somebody asked what LT options Ariadna has, I would respond with a number of different options, include my actual LT as an option, but invariably leave something out (like the airborne ranger or SAS). In general, this won't affect this game, but may affect the way my opponent learns my faction. On the other hand, if the question gets too broad, like "Do you have any ways of ignoring smoke?" I might mention MSV2 (don't have any) and Speculative Fire, but forget about guided ammunition because I don't use it a lot. If I remember that guided is an option halfway through the game, am I allowed to use it? Does it give away FOs if I do or don't mention it (which may be private information under a camo marker)?
    In a friendly game, I have definitely mentioned "Vassily FO has to be my LT." or similar things, but in a tournament, I'm not going to regurgitate Army to you.
     
  14. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    So we're on the "can we use Army in game" again? Yay...I like that! :D

    In casual games, I think people are generally more open about their factions and lists. But in a tournament setting, especially against more "enthusiastic" players, I simply deny answering any questions like "what options are there for X?". I have built my list, it's valid, so there is a legit lieutenant...figure out the rest for yourself. I'll happily tell my opponent all the details after the game.

    On the other hand, I have no problem with someone rebuilding my list on his mobile during the game. Some people just know the different factions, units and point costs by heart. I just don't care either way. That might be, because competitively I always play with a chess clock, so if someone wants to spend his time on that, be my guest!

    Private information doesn't mean, that the opponent cannot know that...it just means I am not obliged to validate any suppositions. For me, this is a specifically interesting part of the game: playing around with information my opponent has access to. Building a list that looks valid if you recreate it in Army, only to find out that there is a Holo2 model that really messed with your expectations. Deploying TO in Camo state, fielding that totally obvious Corregidor Wildcat that just has to be the Lt, but then isn't...stuff like that.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Well I'd have to be darn sure. Sometimes your opponent is doing something that seems weird and either they have a strategy you haven't figured out yet or they're just trying something risky to see what sticks.

    Don't presume you know more than your opponent; that's bitten me in the ass plenty of times.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's a difference between launching into a lecture about how hacking works and going "you do remember that this guy here is a Repeater and I've got at least one Assault Hacker that you can see? Okay, just checking."

    I often wish my opponents reminded me of camo token and TR Remote positions. It's so hard to see the difference between an unarmed REM and a REM with a HMG with how tiny CB makes their guns.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'm always very explicit with the things that aren't on my courtesy list, but other than that, I dunno.

    It doesn't help that about 80% of people don't play them WYSIWYG anyway, and oftentimes assemble them in patterns that aren't even possible.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Different topic, but it's typically not the models that aren't WYSIWYG that I have a problem with (not that WYSIWYG is very possible in this game), but CB's REMs which tends to have tiny little guns that look nothing like actual guns.
    I've taken it upon myself to add oversized guns to my own REMs to never let my opponents end in the same situation. And because it looks freaking awesome having a ginourmous missile launcher on a Son-Bae.
     
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  19. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I have a similar personal challenge with 2D (ie flat) camo markers. I just consistently blank that they're there simply because they so often end up outside my own line of sight (like if I physically can't see them behind parapets, scatter etc). Its like a hole in my object permanence or something. Then a flat marker that should have been an S2 tankhunter that I couldn't physically see reveals in ARO and I have a mild existential crisis.

    In these cases I pretty much have to rely on my opponent to remind me they're there, or else ask if they're happy to borrow a spare set of 3D markers. People are usually happy to oblige the former; the game just runs better when you talk to your opponent.
     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Y'all don't have an 'Army Parade Phase' during deployment as you tell your opponent what is what?

    Not hard to reverse-engineer an army list right then.


    You could quite easily rebuild most of an army list during the Deployment Phase, and update as you kill things.