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Lieutenant and FairPlay

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkaon1125, Oct 24, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    100% this. When my opponent ask me "how much does this trooper with this equipment cost" of course I will answer him (and of course lie through my teeth if I use holo 1 : "yes this trooper is a fusilier and cost 10 points " *cough* *cough*). No point in loosing time by having him check the value in army.

    Take army, use lieutenant in the skill filter. You don't need more.

    I'm pretty sure that being a specialist troop is not private (as long as you are not camoed, holo 1...), so your opponent will know that you are a specialist and don't have any "specialist skill" public. It's the kind of hint only a beginner won't get (and I would feel petty not telling it to a beginner).

    Plus everyone know Kaeltar with mate are CoC. Only people who never though tohaa and never look at them in army don't know it.
     
    #21 Arkhos94, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  2. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Private info is private info. Checking Army during the game might not be expressly verboten but it's gamey as hell. If someone wants to do so they can go right ahead but I won't do it and I'm not gonna condone it either. One of the things I enjoy most is getting new players into the game, and that's exactly why I feel like it's important to nip it in the bud. Pretty much all of the vets in our area do the same "It's not against the rules but it's bad form"
    I'm really thankful nobody in our meta pulls this nonsense
     
  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you understood what we (me and arkhos) are saying. In our meta, people don't go on army to check stuff. We tell the other person what they could find on the army. And it is considered bad behaviour not to tell that kind of things to your opponent / gaming partner.

    That being said you guys play the game the way you want. I'm just expressing what is my preference and why.
     
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Skills in memorizing point costs and loadout info are very different from skills involving tactical choice. Additionally, since use of the app during the game can only be penalized if it causes a delay (and using it during your reactive turn tends to not do that), I don't see the point of withholding that information.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    While I will point out which models or camo tokens might be my LT if opponent so much as mutters about it, I will only answer in vague terms about specific costs. Oh, a Hsien is always in the 60s. Gangbusters is a low 20s, and yes killing MadTraps doesn't change their costs. If someone asks about price it's because they are actively attempting to game the system by calculating an optimal turn and I think it's fair that their win over me should be less about mathing victory and more about threat assessment.
    That said, I think people need to realise one important thing about this game; it has surprisingly few things that's actually private and hidden information.
     
  6. Camden Leisure Pirate

    Camden Leisure Pirate Best of the best of what's left

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    Points and swc is private information so technically using army during play to look at your opponents list is cheating? Especially as we use courtesy lists. Maybe there should be a ruling in this?
     
    NorthernNomad and bladerunner_35 like this.
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's called "playing the game," not "gaming the system."
     
    Balewolf likes this.
  8. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I recall a fairly big thread on this very subject, but somehow I can't find it. It was a long time ago though, so it might have been on the old forum...

    Anyway, I agree with @Marduck and @Arkhos94 : anything that could be considered "common knowledge" should as well be disclosed just like open information, if only to save time from checking on army if your opponent really wants to. Honestly, the only thing that stops points and swc from being openly disclosed on the courtesy list is the rare case when a private information causes little variation (SWC cost/discount for lieutenant, chain command on profiles who have the option, executive order, etc...), and it's still hidden even if you inform your opponent that your unit might be chain of command, and how much each profile costs precisely.

    And besides your list probably shouldn't rely on hiding informations any experienced player would know anyway. Just sayin'.
     
  9. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    If someone wants to check Army against me they can. I'm not going to tell my opponent my valid LT. profiles though. my favorite interaction with this was in a game of firefight

    "Hey, what are your valid LT. options?"
    "I'm not telling"
    "You know I can just check Army."
    "Go ahead"
    "Whatever, I don't want to hold up the game"
    "okay"

    Army is a free and open source available to all of us, it even has a feature that is meant to be kept opened during the game. If someone wants to go on there and look I don't see a problem.
     
  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    That's pretty funny, because when I read your rants about the campaign system (Wotan, Kurage, Asteroid Blues) you argued that putting the points where they matter the most is gaming the system (calculating an optimal outcome for the points) and here you argue that calculating an optimal outcome is playing the game.

    Just strikes me funny. But I won't argue on this point. Everyone can play how he/she likes to and if the meta is okay with it / shares the same philosophy that's fine.
     
    WarHound likes this.
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The difference is that, in the case of the campaign meta-game, it was initially presented as something that was unsportsmanlike, but then when important figures in the community started doing it it was quietly allowed. But it's still presented in a way that makes it seem like it's not something you're supposed to do.
     
  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Points and SWC being private is there so you can hide things like the fact one of your Alguaciles costs 1 SWC because she is the Lt, or the fact your Myrmidon Officer has CoC, it doesn't prevent someone from knowing an Alguacile is 10 points.
     
    #32 colbrook, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
    Zsimbi, toadchild, BLOODGOD and 5 others like this.
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's what it should be, but some TOs are known for flipping their shit if you use that knowledge to beat one of their friends too badly...
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and I as your opponent am not going to tell you the best way to hurt my own chances of winning (unless I'm feeling way ahead, because even games are more fun). I am going to give you enough information that you're playing against me and not against your own lack of encyclopedic knowledge. Knowing a rough points estimate should be enough, but deciding whether to stick an extra unit to be sure you're not a point short or not, that's all up to you and what you think you can afford to spend orders on.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Bit of a tempest in a teapot, it seems. It’s private info, so no, I’m not going to share it or even who it might be. However, if you want to spend my deployment using the courtesy list and Army to try and suss it out, more power to you. Just don’t slow down the game when it comes time to roll dice. And if you’re bonkers enough to have things memorized? You, good sir, have my respect. I’m lucky to remember what day of the week it is.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    private info is private for a reason

    s to army mid game, im gonna take issue with the time your taking to learn my army when we are supposed to be playing, learn on your own time thanks
     
  17. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    Pretty much, I have no obligation to disclose that information so I won't. Open information is about what I did take not about what I could
     
  18. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    The closest example I have is playing Ariadna and bringing an Antipode pack. While it is technically private information what is under the 40mm camo tokens, its not really a surprise. If I'm bringing the pack, I'll usually go ahead and point out that I have the controller, that these three camo tokens are antipodes, and how antipodes activate with one order. I feel like it flows better than spending a single order to move three camo tokens and responding, "because reasons."
    Now, as far as LT options, I usually play a lot of camo, so almost anything on the table could be an LT. and I'm not going to go through the trouble of listing everything for you.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  19. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I’m really beginning to think that there needs to be a mandatory training course for human interactions on the Internet.

    Courtesy: Person A meets Person B, and A does X for B that benefits B.
    The opposite of courtesy: Person A meets Person B, and B demands that A does X for B.

    Responding to courtesy in kind: Great, it’s a wonderful positive cycle.
    Responding to the absence of courtesy in kind, or by being rude: Escalating the situation just makes it more likely that people will get harmed.

    The other player isn’t your servant. If you think it’s their job to explain their army to you, you should pay them in advance so they know how you feel.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If there's still time remaining in the round, cool your jets. Getting mad when an opponent takes the time to make a thoughtful decision that might win them the game is not sportsmanlike.

    That info is private because it might reveal your lt or someone under holo.