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Lets 'Save Super Jump!' The SSJ movement

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Alphz, Nov 3, 2020.

  1. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Hey CB.

    Love your work. But sometimes amongst all the good stuff, something doesn't quite land right.

    Right now I think thats super jump. As you're probably aware, a model can currently barely super jump over obstacles that they could have vaulted. As infinity terrain doesn't tend to be that granular, its generally vaultable, or its quite a bit higher.

    Getting up on Buildings is pretty useful. But you have a skill for doing that - climbing plus. and it lets you work with friends in all those mixed links you gave us. Super jump is a bit of loner in that sense, so should it really be copying climbers?

    I think not.

    To add to the pile, I'd like to submit my suggestion to improving super jump. There are two key changes.

    1. Bring back falling!
    But just for super jump. Allow super jump models to fall up to their first movement skill.

    2. Triangles! No more parabolas.
    Super jump models can do two types of move.
    Short movement skill jump: two trajectories, 1- up to the 1st mov value. 1- up to 1/2 of that move value.
    These trajectories are both straight lines, and may form any angle up to 90 degrees from each other.
    eg. a 6-4 super jump model could make a jump 3" straight up and 6" straight across - a super vault
    or 6" up and 3" across.
    Long movement skill: as above, but thes value are doubled. So that 6-4 super jump model could do a big 12-6 leap.
    In both cases, the model could fall up to 6" without damage.

    This gives super a jump a different movement characteristic to climbing plus, would remove difficult estimations of where the model is, as trajectories are now codified as lines with a defined distance - widgets could easily be created.

    Overall, it would add a slight movement bonus to models using super jump - but the tradeoff is those moves would always be without cover, so would not be universal, and overall are fairly minor of ~0.5" - 0.75"
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I have been thinking about posting a thread about this!

    Keep in mind, this isn't only about Super Jump, but also about Jump. As it is, they could simply remove the rules for Jumping and the game would hardly be affected. It's insane how a soldier, non-augmented soldier in full combat gear(!), can jump up on top of a house and how this is not enough to make traversal worth the order expenditure - but at the same time that soldier can climb a two-storey building in the same amount of time. So a baseline human in combat gear, carrying over 5 KG of guns and ammo, more than 5 KG of field rations and supplies, medical gear, etc etc can jump up onto an object that a top athlete in modern day can not do unaided.
    Realistically speaking, the only moment an unaugmented soldier would be jumping is as part of climbing or to make a controlled fall down from elevation.

    The key thing to keep in mind here is that a trooper can never clip through stuff ("Squeek Through") unless they're declaring a Move and that a trooper can move through objects that are less tall than their silhouette ("Vaulting"), which makes Jumping over objects tedious, difficult to measure, and largely speaking a waste of time for most obstacles.

    Some solutions that I think could be interesting to explore, even if they dig into the core functionality of the game.

    1. Remove Jump, let Climb do the brunt work, allow Super-Jump to fall one MOV distance
    Since Jump doesn't really do anything unless there's two buildings with a 2" gap (regardless if the trooper is a 4-4 S2 or a 6-4 S3+); save space in the book by removing it. Super-Jump's big advantage over Climb used to be how easy it was getting down compared to climbing down and with Climb now offering two free snap-on movements, Climb will always be more advantageous to get up a building. Offering a Super-Jumping trooper the ability to fall up to their first MOV will let the trooper clear an obstacle as the game example details and it's also fairly easy to deal with when measuring.

    2. Keep Jump and allow everyone to fall one MOV distance when Jumping
    This is essentially the above mentioned controlled fall and by far the most common thing I see the freshest of fresh newbies do; they declare a Move and assume they can just drop down from a low building like in XCOM or any given number of computer games.
    This is probably the easiest to implement suggestion I have and the quickest fix.

    3. Remove vaulting, move Squeek Through to be a General Movement Rule that works for up to half width and half height.
    Vaulting allows a trooper to freely and without slowing down get over a 2 meter tall wall while making no effort to keep a low silhouette while on top of the wall. It's silly, to be honest.
    If squeeking through objects was a universal rule for all movement skills, instead the trooper would only be able to clear a 1-meter tall object (similar to what athletes when running Hurdles) without slowing down and more importantly without exposing themselves to extra amount of LOF. It also allows a Super-Jumper to partially jump through smaller obstacles (similar to a parkouring person would do) while having the added benefit of also making certain terrain more interesting by letting units shoot over them but making them a bit of an obstacles getting over.
    The main drawback is the minor issue of measuring half-silhouettes and the fact that it slows movement down a tiny bit and gives more opportunities for AROs.

    This has the side benefit of making Climb less awkward. Vaulting, you see, allows you to move "over" an obstacle with no indication of what is up when you climb, this makes a literal reading of the rules make wall decorations like AC units difficult obstacles for a climbing trooper.

    Bonus suggestion: Reppelling
    Rappelling is like reverse-climbing, but you take advantage of that gravity wants you on the ground. Basically spend an Entire Order to Climb the trooper the shortest path possible to a lower elevation when the trooper is close to an edge. Compared to Climb this would let a unit get down from e.g. a bridge
     
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  3. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    Yep, the new super jump really sucks. Compared to the insanely agile behaviour of super jumpers in N3 it's just boring. A game ago Tarik (MOV 6"-4") wasn't even able to jump over a bush with his 1st MOV, which he easily could've done if falling were allowed. This made an otherwise fun tactic of my opponent just impossible and dulled down the game experience a lot.
    So far only the troopers with super jump and climbing plus can make proper use of super jump since they can jump on the walls and therefore compensate this lame super jump a bit.
     
  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Yeah, this nerf needs to go. It doesn't fix a thing, it breaks the Skill so badly that it should be free.

    The only thing this is any good for now is jumping between buildings. The whole verticality is gone.
     
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  5. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
    Warcor

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    something has to be done about current super-jump
     
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  6. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    haha you can say that again! I'm sure it's appreciated that you were so nice about it :) Better than I could have said it.
     
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  7. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    I think you’re mistakenly attempting to claim that some or all of the “General Movement Rules” don’t apply to Jump and/or other skills with the Movement label. Jump doesn’t call out that it follows those rules, but those rules call out skills with the movement label.
     
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  8. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    I doubt you'll need votes, but you have mine for what little it's worth to get Super-Jump sorted out :)
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You are going to have to elaborate on what you think is in the General Movement Rules, because squeeking through is part of the Move Short Movement Skill's effects requirements.
     
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  10. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    @Alphz I like all your suggestions.
    As a noob having come from minis games where vertical distance is just measured and added to forward movement for the sake of even small obstacles (e.g. every other miniatures game I think) it's been both fascinating and frustrating to deal with the jumping movement in Infinity. While I like the ability to 'vault' in the game, there are a lot of weird problems created by the way this and jumping work. My first thought when it was pointed out how the jump was broken in CodeOne originally (in the sense that any obstacle that was too high to vault over was also de-facto too high to jump over because falling was removed) was your #2 suggestion... though I guessed that this would lead to units jumping down like 8" (jump plus fall) which was maybe against what the designers intended with the removal of falling damage, unless the maximum vertical drop distance was limited to a unit's MOV regardless of what they did with the actual jump portion of the move. I also think it's thematically goofy that you just idle if you can't make a jump-down after you measure - which is just further dissuasion from doing it.

    Was there an impression that Jump needed fixing back in N3 that led to this weird hasty (and clearly not well-thought-out) nerfing? Was there something that people were abusing, such as just jumping straight up to shoot over cover or something?
     
  11. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think they were fixing/simplifying falling and the associated damage. Jump seems more like collateral.

    Personally I don't see much issue with jumping 8-10" downwards.
     
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  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Possessing TAGs and jumping off of buildings to kill them was an un-fun and unintended interaction. Removing fall damage was good, but removing the buffer of free/safe fall distance at the end of jump greatly hampers its use as a mobility tool.

    Now it’s mostly only useful for crossing narrow gaps between elevated areas, and climbing plus has far more generic utility as a mobility skill.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Perhaps, but I don't think it was unbalanced. At a certain point people have to suck it up. Losing isn't fun for some people, but we can't just let them win...
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Eh it was a pretty easy way to murder TAGs that didn't possess super jump, way too easy. Damage 20 continuous damage hits were more than a bit over the top.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They really needed climbing plus to make it workable, otherwise it just took too long.
     
  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    No they didn't. You jumped over 6" into the air off something they could vault onto like a crate or short building/hill. 20 damage right there. Falling at least 6.000001" stacked the damage to 20.

    If you played with a piece of terrain that was like 8" tall you could jump high enough to trigger a damage 30 falling hit, which was impossible for any TAG to pass a save against and therefore instant death.
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'd say it was unfun from a narrative perspective. If the commander wants to destroy the TAG he's possessed, he should just have it stand still while his soldiers shoot it with a missile launcher. Which would be a reasonable tactic. It's never really made sense that you can't shoot a TAG while you have it possessed, but given that you can't, being allowed to jump it off a building made even less sense.

    Agreed that it wasn't really a problem from a gameplay perspective.
     
  18. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Now that the Guijia has Superjump, you have my vote! (just kidding). I can support this regardless.
    Removing falling damage was a good thing, but nearly not be able to use this skill, is not. The most painful thing about this is the discussion with your opponent if that obstacle is in the right height to jump on it. Jumping over something is not possible anyway. (only on a tiny margin) ;-)
     
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  19. Surmelk

    Surmelk Well-Known Member

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    Yes super jump is a mess. Hoping for a fix, but not expecting it.
     
    #19 Surmelk, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  20. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    Downloads N3 rulebook to see how fall damage worked...
    Wait, WHAAAAAT? That's how it used to work!? And it's clear that it was intended to be that way since the literal example on the page has a 5" fall killing a figure. I suppose the point is that it was an accidental neck-breaking type fall and you could 'jump' partway down to reduce the distance that you fell (though continuous damage from a fall still makes no damn sense).

    Seems again like the least game-breaking solution for N4 is just that you can jump and then fall to complete your movement but cannot fall farther than your first MOV (or are forced to idle instead)... maybe add the ability for Super Jump figures to actually fall ANY distance, but then the jump becomes a full turn action, as opposed to a short skill and imagine them doing a 'superhero' landing with fist on the ground and the pavement broken around them. This would explicitly flavor Super Jump as beneficial for 'downward' movement vs Climbing Plus for 'upward' movement, as someone mentioned previously.
     
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