My only grape with the kanren is that the specialists for some reason lack deployables when skirmisher of other factions do carry those. It might be a relict from older times that was overlooked. As it is kanren are pretty pricey, as they pay for things they will barely ever use, compared to the likes of for example morans which are all specialists and all carry either mines or koalas.
I don't know, I want to love the Kanren but I've never been able to put him at work. It bugs me a lot that he pays for a lot of options that don't work together at best (a decent CC without ways to close the distances), or conflicts to each other at worst (holomask becomes almost useless - save from a few loadout tricks - if forward deployment is used). But I'll keep experimenting with it, maybe I will be able to find a use :)
i had some success with two Kanrens and a Ninja in a game against a friend playing corregidor lately. Kanrens do need some support to do their work as they are easily outgunned and outranged. I played a Hsien MMR in a haris with a Zhanying Ml and Xi Zhuang, a Kuang Shi core and a BSG garuda. I deployed the missle launcher and the Haris on the right flank so that he would be able to lock down a lond diagonal firelane without beeing seen from the opposing DZ. The Kanren in tandem with Madtraps, killerhacking and the ML were able to bring the core with Jazz, Evader, Jaguar and all the nasty stuff to a halt as my opponent didn´t find a way across the ML firelane without triggering Madtraps. But then we are quite inexpierienced and there might have been an elegant way to get across that firelane. So in my turn i was able to advance on the flank with my haris wiping a bandit a sombra and a Intruder HMG in suppressive from the board while switching an objective and then flank his core and kill the Evader and jaguar with the ML. I left the hsien a little bit overextended and so he got killed by massacre who was in return fried by Xi Zhuang. the ninja KHD secured another objective. in the end i hold two objectives and my opponent one. The kanren where really good roadblocks with their Holos and masking the unhackable one as hacker and viceversa and were able to waste a lot of orders in my opponents first turn. Even if they didin´t kill anything except for Billy and a Moran. But i sorely missed deployables on the killerhacker. You are right Kanren are somewhat odd but they are the only skirmishers additional to the one ninja we get in Imperial service. So value might vary depending on what you expect of them. If you want them to be the star of the show and slice things like a jotum in two with the mono you might be disappointed. That might be a thing happening once in a lifetime. But stalling the opponent, and killing some lonely guy they glued down and minesweeping those guys are what you are looking for. The last game sounded like a lot of luck for your opponent, some games are like that. Just keep trying! ;)
Yeah, Kanren have had that issue since they popped up in N3. They can be very useful when you have a specific mission objective or game plan in mind, either offensive or defensive, but the lack of overlap with defensive and specialist profiles means it's hard to pick a "generally useful Kanren". With the grumble aside though, I've managed to monofilament an Anaconda with a cybermasked KHD kanren, so that is probably my favorite profile. I've also won games of supplies by starting Kanren near the objectives and running off with two in the first turn. There aren't a lot of good ISS options for getting roadblocks onto the middle of the table in the first turn, so you work with what you've got. (P.S. The anaconda slicing was in Show of Force... so I knew a TAG would be heading towards the table center. If the mission tips you off which Kanren profile you need, it's way easier to put them in lists and know they'll be useful.)
I disagree about closing the distance. The Forward Deploy is pretty good. I do wish was more. I just recently killed a Joutum in CC with a Kanren. It was pretty awesome. The echoes also help to close if you use them right. Yeah I agree. For some reason they do that with most of YJ. They give and take away for them. He can be a specialist but heaven forbid they also have D-Charges or keep their Sensor. Never compare to Nomads. They get everything and then some. It's just the way it is. BTW, I was thinking of trying to do a holomask of a Kanren as three Bao snipers just to see what happens lol.
Haha... I agree, Nomads seem to have all the toys. But they don't get the same selection of kick-ass HI that can do all the jobs: they have a bike that can transform into a robot, but it isn't HI and it can't climb walls... they have infiltrators, but not HI infiltrators like the Zhencha or Dao Fei they have great AD, but none of it is HI that explodes, takes a hit to the face and still boarding shotguns the survivors (assuming it doesn't get bricked... lol) So they're really versatile and their hacking can definitely make them paper to our rock. In the broader metagame, they can't put really resilient threats in the same places we can.
Did you forget about the Sombra? Ok you definitely forgot about the Sombra Explode is a functionally shit rule on the Liu Xing.
I'd point out that Sombra aren't HI, but then I'd just have to admit that being HI is actually a drawback. So I'll just say that Sombras don't actually have infiltration.
Lol, ok I forgot about the Sombra. But it hasn't got full infiltration, doesn't transform into a robot, and only moves 4-4. I'd rather have a Su-Jian any day of the week. Daofei vs Sombra is probably a push, though it'd be nice for the Daofei to have climbing plus. Conversely, I'm sure the Sombra would like to start further up the table, have more Armor & BS, and have terrain (total)... Explode is mostly a novelty on the Liu Xing and rarely game-changing. Since you can sometimes use it to assassinate an LT as you pop onto the board, I think you're being a little too unkind to it. It definitely scares opponents and forces a dispersed deployment in otherwise safe looking areas of the board, so there can be fun side effects.
Being HI isn't an advantage in itself, but we do have 2+ wound, heavily armed and armoured models across the whole variety of deployment types.
Yeah they are are almost the same as a Zhencha. Already immune to hackers but then BTS 6 on top of that for some reason. Oh well. Again, Nomads.
No it doesn't, Explode is functionally garbage in the Liu Xing because it's so easy to avoid. Trying to use Explode is more likely to get your Liu Xing engaged and stuck in a CC slap fight, possibly with multiple models. Explode works on disposable troops not expensive ones. Explode on the Liu Xing is a noob trap.
Can confirm. Early on experimenting with Louie I dropped him behind a lone flash pulse bot on a rooftop so he could get at an unsuspecting fireteam. Remote dodged into CC at which point my Liu Xing started eating up orders I couldn't afford. Dice gods weren't in my favour so ended up IMM-A from the para -3 CCW. There's no longer a situation I'd drop him on someone rather than drop him round a corner and walk round. Unless maybe the enemy is immobilized, but even then, I'm giving them a chance to dodge/reset out of IMM on the chance of them taking a single pistol shot.
Yeah, it's definitely a bit of a trap, but it's not completely worthless. I've had it go wrong and you do have to be very careful not to bite off more than you can chew, and that the reward is worth the Liu Xing's hefty price tag. One scenario where you might want to use it is if you're dropping anywhere near a hacker. Better to plop the Liu Xing behind the hacker and have them dodge at -3 than hack you. Sometimes you want to go after a moderator LT, and you stand to win big from the gamble. The other scenario where it can work is where you can hit enough models that you're pretty sure to knock down one or two of them and you just couldn't get to them another way. A mostly prone ARO link team on a hard to access roof, for example. If you can put a template over 3-4 dakini and tag their helperbot, it could be a good enough trade. That's not an optimal play, but a passable plan B or C if you were badly locked down.
They're going to hack you. 47% chance they isolate your attack piece with a crappy WIP13 hacker, and the explode is so anemic there's a decent chance they just tank the save.
In a similar vein, dropping onto a fire team with Sixth Sense makes it either a suicide drop (as the damage is relatively feeble and might be worth risking shooting back if only 2 models were caught) or they get to attempt to dodge into B2B without penalty. I mean, yeah I probably wouldn't be able to resist if I could get 4 models under the template, despite what I've just said (due to it appealing to my cinematic pyro tendencies), but the reality is that no opponent with any experience would group a fireteam that close together to let it happen.
If an interventor LT is hacking you they're not dodging, so you've got a flat 55% chance of putting them in LoL. It's a gamble for sure, but it does have the benefit of being very order inexpensive - if you kill them on the drop you've only spent the LX's order which wasn't on the table anyway. Tunguska doesn't have Chain of Comand, so it's a wild swing but could be a knockout punch. It could also open up the table for other units tied down by repeaters, at which point the math would swing wildly. At least by going for the explosion you'll know quickly if the plan works or not, rather than trying to work your way through ZoC with resets, spending 2-3 orders and then getting bricked. Like all the things we end up arguing about, you're probably right that the explosion is mostly worthless. It's a rule that's pretty much free, but rather than write it off as garbage you should bank it as a rarely used wrench in your toolbox.
You're going right back into arguing about people making bad plays to prop up bad ideas again. Opponent needs to be stupid not to have the Interventor LT covered by nearby AROs when drop troops are a live threat. It's so crap on the Liu Xing I'd rather it didn't pay the points for it. We're talking after literally years of using this model I've successfully exploded literally a single enemy. That kill happened tonight. That took actual years to find a situation where it wasn't both an inferior use of orders compared to doing anything else and my opponent being kind enough to fail the save on the piss weak hit.
A risky play that quickly resolves without hosing a whole order pool is my favourite kind of risky play. Also, opponents don't have to be stupid. Tables and evolving situations can open up opportunities for this stuff even if your opponent is experienced. If you can drop next to it nothing the opponent can cover the Interventor LT with will stop the explode result from hitting it, assuming they hack you with it. What we're going back to is you arguing that something you've got is dumb and worthless and me saying that you've got it, so you might as well try and think about when it's the right time to use it. Parachute on and shoot from table edge by all means if it's possible. Save your Liu Xing for a later turn if you don't want to take the risk yet, but sometimes a 55:45 suicide gamble on the first turn is worth taking. The Liu Xing is a solid 2 wound attack unit and AD specialist already and doesn't need to explode to be good. The explosion is a fun rule that gives the unit character, and you get style points for changing a game result with it.
No, the Interventor in this case should dodge while the AROs covering the LT should be used to protect it and deal with the Liu Xing. Even something as basic as a flash pulse will stop this. The Liu Xing is a viable unit however Explode is an utterly worthless rule on the model and it would be better if it didn't have it. Like I said, it's literally such a fucking shit rule on the Liu Xing I've taken multiple years to find a situation so FUBAR where it was even worth attempting and then also having an opponent fail their saves to it. That goes beyond paying for a niche piece of equipment and straight into worthless garbage. It's a rule designed for a throwaway unit. The Liu Xing is not a throwaway unit. It's a shitty noob trap on the Liu Xing, nothing more.
