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Kusanagi withdrawn from ITS

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by BloodRose, Apr 10, 2018.

  1. BloodRose

    BloodRose Member

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    So it has happened my fellow shotposters of the HS, CB has finally realised that perhaps Kusanagi is in need of a little stat revamp!
    Kusanagi has been withdrawn from the ITS listing. You can still include her but your list will not be ITS legal.
    According to CB she, along with several other models of questionable performance, have been withdrawn for rebalancing and stat changes which will hopefully see them put in a better position when reintroduced.

    So, what was wrong with Kusanagi you ask? Well, she seemed okay initially, with the highest BS in the Nomad faction (14), an ARm of 3, high WIP and V;NWI, as well as being a linkable specialist and having ODD.
    The problem was well, she cost more than a average ARM 4 HI, - nearly as much as a Kriza.
    She did not really perform well, being of only slightly above average PHS, and had a laughable zero BTS, meaning that a single Viral or Nanopulsar hit would see her in dire straights.
    And, although this may be personal experience, she never really felt good, she always seemed underwhelming. She was too slow, she required too much setting up and support and she just felt weak for the vast sum of points she cost. YMMV.

    Anyway, what are your thoughts on Kusanagi and what would you like to see done to her?
     
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  2. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I thought it was confirmed that they are not being taken out for adjusting.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Nothing.

    Leave Cassie Alone!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    Zero BTS sucks a lot, I have to admit.

    After that, I don't see what rebalancing she needs. She already got it in HSN3 with specialist operative and a spitfire profile. She's a super moira and you pay a lot for it.
     
  5. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I'd like her to swap sectorials and lead Wildcats.
     
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  6. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Yea, they aren't getting adjusted from what I've seen.

    I don't know that she needs much of a change. I think she's exactly what she should be, which is a super-moira. She essentially pays 10 points to get a light flamethrower, +2 BS, NWI and Specialist Operative. Seems like a pretty good deal to me?

    Her biggest problem isn't her, it's her competition. In vanilla she can't out-perform a Kriza or an Intruder, and without CoC options there's no reason to use her as an aggressive Lt. Even her E/M grenades, which are sweet, don't function as well as infiltrating repeaters/hackers. In Bakunin (someone can jump in and correct me if I'm wrong here), the issue is that she's really only effective in a Moira pain train, but why would you take that over a Riot Grrl pain train?

    As far as changes if they decided to do that, I would like to see her CC get bumped up to 19 or so to get in line with the Healer, and give her an Exp CCW.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They're coming back with some "bonus" but no profile changes. What that entails I have no idea.
     
  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Sorry Franken Fran, it has been officially confirmed that the banned characters will be back with the usual statline, the same model, and a common, wide "buff" for them similar to how all tags have Fatality N1 (+1 damage to ranged attacks) during this ITS.
     
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  9. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    i imagine that "price discount" is not a "bonus" right?

    i mean, i know that Riot girls are definitely the "best" quality-cost factor you can get in bakunin, but moira are IMHO a bit on the low end of the scale
     
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  10. neostrider

    neostrider Well-Known Member

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    I agree she needs a buff. There's a lot of characters you could compare her to that she'd be lucky to match.

    I play bakunin as my main faction and my problem taking her is that she's is exactly what the meta plays against. Msv 2 snipers and defensive link teams hope to see her as a big waste of my points. For her points and stat line you'd have been better off with a to infiltrator or HI with powerful gun.

    Her link is similar problem. I had a lot of steel phalanx and tohaa in my meta so anyone who saw my moiras just smiled and the unplanned effectiveness of their flamers and msv2. Plus were squished for not much point savings.


    My guess is they will all gain will gain a level of strategos or a new ability to do something leader related. Maybe a new ability to designate the replacement Lt openly on death? Something like chain of command but on the Lt?
     
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  11. BloodRose

    BloodRose Member

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    The problem is that Moiras in themselves are not that good anyway. They cost a hell of a lot and even with the ODD give very little back in return.

    Thats just it. For the same points or slightly more you can get a far superior model and for less points you can get a outright better link. She is really struggling to perform at the moment. It would not take much, a slight buff and a points drop and she would be useful again.

    But what do they want her to be? TBH I still do not understand the whole CC thing with the Reverancy - Moiras have a awful CC skill and quite frankly the one thing they are supposed to be really good against has a superior CC skill (as well as invalidating their ODD and being outright better)

    I cannot like this enough. You have literally put into writing everything I think. For her price you can get literally dozens of things that are cheaper and better.
     
  12. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Don't get your hopes up.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Kusanagi Haris is her happy place. And the biggest issue with that link is that White Noise has NFB: which is a problem with Custodiers not her.

    She's niche, not bad. In her niche she's extremely solid and does things that nothing else in Bakunin is as effective at. Sure, she's fragile but that's an intentional limitation that can be managed with smart play.

    For the record her niche is as an active link leader for Custodiers / Moiras. A role in which she excels while simultaneously providing a solo Rambo option after you break the link.

    Honestly, given the amount of Nomads profiles I'm ok with her not being a great choice in Vanilla (nor IMO are a lot of other troops). Not everything needs to be good in every situation to be a worthwhile choice.

    You're also characterising the general problem with MI caused by the proliferation of elite LI and cheap HI as specific issues with Kusanagi. Basically, Moiras are comparatively weak when compared to Grrls because Grrls are stupid strong. They can be one of the most effective MI links in the game against the right opponent. But overall MI in general need help (particularly active MI links).

    Also SoF with Kusanagi +1 SWC profile and Emily is a valid option.

    Tl;dr Cassie is a great MI character. MI in general have problems in the current meta.
     
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  14. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Close/mid range LI links aren't doing so hot either. The speed isn't the biggest problem.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    In my meta, looking at full cores:

    Most common link is defensive basic LI.

    Best mixed link is Keisotu + Tanko ML.*

    Best HI link is Grrls with 2 x ML.

    Best MI link is a defensive Grunt link with 1-2 Snipers.

    Best full Moira Core is 2 x MSR (+1 SWC Kusanagi Lt).

    Active midfield links have issues: they're just compounded with MI. Kusanagi is primarily designed as a Midfield active piece.

    Edit: best is fungible, but I'm basically going with 'link that you need to consider beating when you build a list'.

    *There's an argument that it's actually the Grey+Vol active midfield link. Which is a fair argument. But mixed LI/HI links are kinda weird outliers anyway.
     
    #15 inane.imp, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    LI defensive links dominate, followed by specific Frenzy links (especially defensive or WB), followed by everything else tied as far as I can tell. Fortunately my meta isn't like that except maybe one player. I have a lot of thoughts on why that is (and why it probably will stay until N4) but I'm not going to put energy in to making a thread about it unless I get pretty bored.
     
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  17. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
    Warcor

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    Yeah, I really wonder myself why people think she needs a buff. She is very solid in her Haris. I would even say a little too strong. Apart from that... every model has its niche and every player has a different style. And you can't compare Kriza etc. to her.

    I know one of the best players in the Southern Germany and Switzerland area and he never played Bakunin without her. For obvious reasons.
     
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  18. Alkasyn

    Alkasyn Well-Known Member

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    Just so you don't get your hopes up - it's confirmed that the profiles will recieve a temporary bonus after they are reintroduced into ITS, but no permanent changes.
     
  19. wellspokenman

    wellspokenman Retired Intruder

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    She could use a buff, but she's not in the "why would you ever" territory. As with most things in Infinity, if you want to take her you can make her work. Giving all the Moira's Shock Immunity would give them a serious boost, since it would make Cassie much tougher and the link always has a Doc in it anyway.
     
  20. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I started including her a lot more only because of the SoF tax making me tight on SWC.
     
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