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Knauf has a steals. Why?

Discussion in 'StarCo' started by Zhecka, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I'd rather have the the extra -3 mod from Surprise than ammo modes that are largely corner case, on a cheaper platform. At 24 points a cateran is at the right place to be a disposable ARO piece that I wont care about when it goes down or does nothing and is a proper PITA to deal with. At 32 you feel Knauf going down or screwing up a hell of a lot more, which has a higher chance to happen as it is significantly harder for him to slap -12 on something (Usually a TR bot) compared to the cateran who also costs less SWC and with points left over allows you to bring a Transductor.
     
  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Knauf isn't bad by any means, but when you look at our other options for MSR/SRs they tend to offer something (spot in a fireteam, MSV2, Cheap, Marker state, etc.) that makes fitting him into a list a little on the awkward side. He is one of those pieces that almost always makes the cut, but will get swapped out for something else at the last minute.
     
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    To be fair, AP gets equal to DA about ARM 7, I think... (or so it was a few years back, at least), and Stun is the option for ARO when you face something that can tank 2 wounds without much trouble (I can only think of a fully buffed Sheskiin here, frankly... enven an Avatar will suffer greatly against 2 wounds). The problem is that the units that usually got a stun dart were Dog Warriors... and now are inmunne, all the other units tending to have equal or better BTS than ARM.

    That being said, certainly with MM1 DA is better than T2 because of the shock effect added, making him a cleaner of 1w models.

    Usually Knauf is not a primary ARO unit, like Atalanta they act better as hunters. Now, Knauf is better at ARO than her because of Mimetism, while MSV1 gives a nice extra where Atalanta needs smoke cover to really shine.
     
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  4. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I feel like people think I'm in the Knauf camp but I'm really not. :thinking_face:

    As for Stun/AP I wouldn't try to claim either is particularly important but there are definitely some odd situations where they are useful. Stun does reasonably well in ARO against any none TI unit thats over 2 wounds, or that you don't reliable expect to get 2 wounds against. (Ie: Most TAGs, Many HI and so on.)
     
  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Even as an active hunter the other sniper options perform better than knauf. Brawler, lose a point of BS pick up MSV2 and more than likely an extras burst, cheaper. Cateran, marker state for surprise shot, still has the mimetism, can easily relocate if needed, essentially gets a free shot everyturn if you dont need it's irregular order for something else, cheaper. Alguaciles, BS14, B3, SSL2, dirt cheap assumiong it's in a core otherwise it falls into the why bother category along with the Al hawwa' sniper.

    Knauf is just short of having an actual place in a list.
    I've not been able to get him to work well or at least not in a way that justifies not taking one of the other options.
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    brawler is cheaper, but if you want to count the extra burst, you have to take into account the extra dudes (and SWC), but also the 2 extra orders (And the opening option for the 0 SWC lieutenant in there). And the cateran is not extra shot, but an order less if you dont positionate/shot with him, the good thing about it, is that T2 gives more pressure to the enemy, and while it works, it is more scary than multi for fewer points. Even if he shoots better than both of them

    the problem is all of his set, bring him to a point range that doesn't work well. He is expensive for what he brings to the table, and also, the faction dessign limits him too (if he was as fluf/manga says, he would not be in this sectorial). I cannot avoid thinking that if he were in a pano/aleph faction, he would have BS14, MSV2 or NWI for as much 2-3 points more because those free fixes they get.
     
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  7. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    How does T2 give more pressure than DA + shock ? For most units with T2 you have to do 1 save or lose your mini, with DA + shock you have to do 2 saves, if you fail only one of them the mini is dead. For HI, T2 has more chances to wound 2, but DA has more chances to wound at least one, which is not bad either.

    As an Aleph/OSS player, i definitely fear Knauf more than a cateran, his MSV1 negates my nagas' CH and his DA+shock means my troop has very little chance of living.

    EDIT: played a bit with dice tool
    Knauf or Cateran at 40-60 range band vs naga in suppressive fire (a nice speed bump when the naga has completed his objectives)
    Knauf has 54% of killing the naga, vs 16% of taking 1 wound.
    T2 sniper Cateran has 27,4% vs 19,6%

    In that situation Cateran shoots on 6- instead of 10- for Knauf, plus only one save instead of 2. It does a pretty big difference. If Cateran use surprise shot the naga cannot shoot but he still have only 33% chances of dying.

    Of course this is just a situational example, but don't underestimate Knauf. For 8 pts/0.5 SWC more than a cateran he brings a regular order, a MSV1 (which is quite handy given the amount of mimetic/CH troops one can expect), and DA+shock. Given the opponent it can be quite worth.
     
    #27 Nenyx, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, statistically yes, and maybe in a vacuum and against aleph, the T2 is not so frightening. But against Aleph/SSO, the cateran can take advantage of uhahu/s white noise for those MSV, and the brawler can hunt better the MK2 proxy, dasyus, with the irmaninho's smoke against nagas or other troopers. Yes, the ammunition, in those small cases, is better knauff, but the mayority of players I've faced are more afraid of T2. Maybe is psycological. Also, being camo, the cateran has a little more survivality than knauff, which can be hunted down easier with grenades from some troopers, and knauff suffers from both white noise and smoke
     
  9. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying T2 is not so frightening. I'm saying that for anything that can't ignore shock, DA+shock is more dangerous than T2, that's a fact. And even for things that don't care about shock, DA is roughly as dangerous as T2.

    Fair point for white noise, but visual mods are quite frequent so MSV1 is also a very good (yet cheap) piece of equipment.

    Knauf problem may be that he is not optimised - he is neither a fearsome ARO piece (Aleph example would be Mk.2 sniper, CH:TO, BS13, MSR, NWI and no order lost on death) nor a fearsome active hunter (Aleph example would be Atalanta + Myrmidon). He can do both quite well through, but as all polyvalent units he may seems bloated (which i don't think he is, he is not that expensive given what he can do)

    * I'm giving Aleph example because these are snipers that are quite optimised for these tasks
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    MSV1 is "cheap"...for some factions. There are who pay 2, and who pay 4 for it. Mercs like him pay 4 (its easy to see in Le Muet). Is not only the bloat, is also the formula used... for some factions is the optimized one with some discounts, for others is the old one with no discounts.

    about fear, different experiences I suppose. Maybe is because people is more used to MSR than T2R, or maybe is because they don't know the statistics behind
     
  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Curious as to how you got this as, the Naga shouldn't be able to shoot back. Surprise + -3 from range (providing you are under 24 in the first place) + mimetism + cover puts it at BS 0 where as the cateran is on 6's which gives it a roughly 34% chance to kill it. Which is probably higher if the aleph player realises this and goes for the dodge instead.

    The cateran has around a 60% chance (58 with surprise shot, 61 with) to put down a TR bot vs Knaufs 64% which is higher however he also has a 18% chance to die vs the Caterans 0, and this is without factoring things like MML2 on the remote in.
     
  12. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Because i didnt count surprise shot, since the cateran can only do this once per battle, provided he wasn't discovered before. And even then, you have only 34% chances of kiling the naga for 1 order and your only surprise shot of the game, it's rather expensive. Knauf doesn't lose efficiency during the battle, the cateran does.

    As i said before, Knauf does not have an optimised profile aimed at a specific role. He is a very good hunter for dogged/nwi camo, which is rather uncommon. He is overall a good sniper, able to both do active and reactive duty, through he is not the best for either. He has some fluffy skills and equipment (stealth, CC19 and heavy pistol) that increase his cost, but the utility of them is debatable at best. So he is not as optimised as, said, the kamau sniper (which has exactly the same cost). Note that Knauf is not that far from a kamau, the main difference between them is that the kamau can be linked and benefit from huge free bonuses.

    So i don't think Knauf as a liability, he is pretty usable. I can see why someone would prefer the cateran (which is very good too, and cheaper), but Knauf has his strength too. The main advantage i see about Knauf is MMS L1 with a MSR. DA+shock is a big threath for light infantry/warbands. I think Knauf is better used as a 2nd/3rd turn piece and kept safe on turn 1 (he is regular so it's not a problem). He can be very troublesome and a big deterrant for the opponent, especially if said opponent is on limited ressources (as in turn 3 with the need to spare orders for objectives)
     
  13. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

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    Wee-e-e-ell...for a hunter Knauf has a so-so equimpent and deployment. Sniper rifle means he is better to sit somewhere far away from template weapons and midfield, while usually, diffrent nasty camo's are hiding somewhere in total cover. So, it means, Knauf somehow will have to spend lots of orders to get LOF to camo, and fall in <16" range (because good player won't expose his camoes so easily...unless it is an ambush or mine)... Maaaybe if Knauf had at least marksmanship rifle and at least forward deployment L1 I'd call him The Camo Hunter.

    Hell... I'm moooore for hunting with Cateran, thanks to his climbing plus and finding an annoyning angles, to shoot people in their boots.

    I really tried Knauf... I tried him in FRRM ... Unless you have a veeery open table, he will need lots of orders, you cannot put him in ARO as usually he goes down after good HMG burst and he need a veeery special situation to be effective. Maaaybe climbing+ and 6-2 move will make him a better hunter...?
     
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  14. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I dunno. As he is, he can be good in many situations but is never really the best in any. That's why i see him more as a deterrent, if he is somewhere (as in total cover during the reactive turn) the opponent may fear to advance too much where Knauf could have a LoS. Then you use him to shoot what could be shot at (probably at overextended dudes) during turn 2 and ARO on objective on turn 3.
    But i do agree that there may be better (and mostly cheaper) troops to do so.

    Climbing+ and 15/5 mvt would be better i think (and quite useful on his profile), but since he's still a B2 troop, there will always be better active hunters.