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Kazak schola an unofficial TAK guide.

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by MATRAKA14, Mar 16, 2019.

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  1. MattyG2787

    MattyG2787 Member

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    Quick bump and looking forward to seeing some other list ideas
     
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  2. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Well-Known Member

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    Why is this still not sticked? Anything inferior about this guide that has to be fixed?
    We still have no sticky TAK guide, you know ;)

    Gesendet von meinem Nokia 6.1 mit Tapatalk
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It still saddens me that this thread isn't titled "TAKtics guide!"
     
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  4. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    Bumping this thread as I can't find much in the way of TAK tactics and would be nice to hear what N4 has changed.
     
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  5. McKaptain

    McKaptain Well-Known Member

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    How do we get this thread pinned?
     
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  6. goat90

    goat90 New Member

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    Any suggestions for what to use if you dont have the trakor mules or the bases to proxy them?
     
  7. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    With the model cap in N4, you don't need them!
     
  8. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    I can still see the purpose of getting 3 orders and a button pusher for 23pts to still be viable, but it depends on how you want to go about going down from 16 to 15 orders. Do you keep the Traktors and Dozer to remove a more active piece and upgrade something else or do you replace the Traktors with two other cheerleaders, like maybe a pair of Line Kazak FOs?
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Indirect fire with Targetted not falling off at the end of the round on is yum as well.
     
  10. RasPuto

    RasPuto Well-Known Member

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    If you need to fill the last slots, Irmandinhos, Line Kazak (FO or Paramedics, especially as backup for the link) or even bigger pieces as Carmen or Dog Warriors, it honestly depends on what you've already in your list.
     
  11. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    So here are some takes that I have when reading this guide and looking at some of the N4 changes. Take this as just my initial thoughts, I am still a beginner and not sure about any of it.

    Voronin
    Voronin's LT profile is even better, although more expensive given that he has an additional order. In this case he is probably best used in the Line Kazak Core. In the TAK lists I have seen from N4 on the Spanish forums he seems like an autoinclude.

    Kazak Doktor
    The Doktor is now linkable in the Kazaks which gives him more reason to live now. That said, as a single piece the cheaper 112 is still better and the defensive core is not a great place for him to be in to get more active pieces up.

    Dynamo
    These guys have become a lot cheaper, being 33% off and gained Impetuous which I think would make them much more viable. At 18pts for the FO and 19pts for a Boarding Shotgun Paramedic they seem like very nice alternatives to the Strelok FO.

    Spetsnaz
    Not much to say, but the Parachutists got cheaper, they have stealth and Parachutist is more flexible, so that option is probably more viable.

    Frontovik
    Some options got cheaper, notably the specialists, any three can form the Haris and there is a Lt profile for more flexible Lt game if you're not bringing Voronin.

    Tank Hunters
    3-4pts more expensive for the "Medium infantry buff" of Mov 4-4. Might still be viable as they are still Medium infantry with camouflage and a lot of AP weapons. No SWC cost for the LT anymore though

    Veteran Kazaks
    The basic rifle profile is gone, meaning the rifle LT option is now obvious, and the mk12 profile is gone too. On the other hand the Haris is now free to be formed by any of them. The HMG also got a SWC reduction which is nice.

    Ratnik
    The shotgun profile got more expensive, but got a burst bonus on the HRL, making for a pretty nasty 16"-32" threat. The Molotok is now replaced with an AP Spitfire to make it even better at Dam 14 and they decided to change out the reload of the Panzerfaust for a set of Flammenspeer for more versatility.
    And they made it cheaper.
    He did lose 5 Phys for dodging though, so going prone and using smoke and cover is more important.

    Scouts
    The Sniper profile got even cheaper and the minelayer decided to swap their E/M mines for Shock ones

    Antipode Assault Pack
    The virtues of the pack is explored elsewhere, but the change to Peripheral makes them better. The tac awareness is also nice with the 15 order limit.
     
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  12. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    So, after some more thinking and seeing what others have said, I'm sort of changing my mind against the Kazak Doktor again, but not because of the 112, rather I think both of them (and the motorized 112) have been upstaged by the paramedics.

    The big thing here is ofc that Medikits now has the target make an unmodified PH roll rather than a PH-3 one. With Ariadna having 12 PH as almost a standard, and 11 PH as their "weak", this means the difference between a Paramedic and a Doctor is now a lot smaller, although the Doctor is still generally better. The other effect of Doctor is not applicable either since Ariadna just doesn't use cubes.

    The big issue is that Medikits are non-lethal BS weapons, meaning that when in a 3 man fireteam they have B2, meaning you make two hit rolls, and if both hit you get to make two PH rolls. Add to that the possibility that you could get the +3 BS from the core and throwing a Medikit in a 3 man link is almost always better than just using the doctor ability, and this is without going into that this can be done without going into silhouette but can be done at 8" range. There are of course multiple circumstances, but even the "worst case" of only having B2, only having the range, but not the core BS modifier, and healing a PH11 model still has a 62% chance of success compared to the 65% of the Doctor. A hidden side effect is also that about 25% of the failures (9% of total cases) are from the medikit missing completely and as such doesn't kill the target.

    With this in mind is it as such worth spending extra points for your Core Link Kazak Doktor when you can get a Paramedic for less. And is the solo 112 even needed? These points could instead be spent on something else, like ensuring that any Haris you make has a Paramedic on a much more fighty body.


    Well, how about the 112 Motorized? Well, here he is still under competition by the paramedics in your core and haris, but he is also offered serious competition from another source, the Dynamos. A Dynamo Paramedic is an allround more useful profile. They've exchanged their shotgun for a beefier Boarding Shotgun, added a mine dispenser to their bike, got a point in ARM and BS and (arguably most importantly) has Impetuous for order efficency. While sadly you can't use medikits with an impetuous order you're still able to use the order to move towards the downed target (assuming they are closer to the enemy deployment zone than this model is, which arguably they should be) and throw down smoke on the way. And if this movement would be a hindrance then... just don't use the order.
    All this for the cost of 1pt and 5-10% success rate when silhouette healing.

    Of course, all this does not mean that 112 Motorized should never be taken, they are still better at their given job... but at what opportunity cost?
     
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  13. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why healing a PH11 model with a medikit has a success rate as high as 62%?
    Even the PH roll on its own is a 55% success; and when combined with the need to hit that percentage can only ever go downwards? (As I can't see how they'd ever be hitting on BS20+).
     
  14. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    The key here is that you have a burst of 2, meaning you get two chances, not one. If you have a single shot at BS14 and PH 11 you have a 0.7*0.55 = 38.5% chance. However, if that fails you still get another shot, (0.615*0.7*0.55= 23.67%) which adds upp to a total of roughly 62%.
     
  15. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but that's just to hit the target with the medikit. You then need to perform the PH test to see if they're actually healed; and if they have PH11 that ends up being around a 34% chance of healing them, (highly simplified as I don't have time to account for the multiple burst).
     
  16. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    No, I've included the calculation for both hitting and healing as well as the multiple burst.
    BS14 (BS 11 +3 range mod) = 14/20 = 0.7
    PH11 = 11/20 = 0.55

    1st shot = 0.7x0.55= 0.385
    38.5%

    2nd shot needs only be calculated on a fail meaning it is 1-0.385= 0.615 that is then multiplied by the success chance 0.615*0.385= 0.2367
    23.67%

    Add the two together and you get 62.17%
     
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  17. Alri

    Alri Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    The Math above is correct, i will try to write a simplier and easier to understand approuch:

    These Number apply only when you reach B2 medikid. (via Link bonuses, Medikid(+1B) or Coordinated order)

    Lets again asume we have BS 14 (11+3) on the model with medikit and PH 11 on the target we shot the medikit at

    There are 3 possible outcomes of shoting, i.e. hiting 0,1 or 2 shots. Each of these outcomes then follow its own math for the medikid roll process.

    The probabilities for these events are:

    0 hits - 9% (0,3*0,3),
    2 hits - 49% (0,7*0,7),
    1 hit - 42% (1-0,49-0,09, from the law of total probability).

    For the medikid outcome then:

    The 0 hit allways ends up that nothing happens. Multiplied by the probablity of the 0 hit event leads to 9% of nothing happens!

    The 1 hit ends up to 55% of healing and 45% of killing the target. When multiplied by the probablity of the 1 hit event we get 23,1% (0,42*0,55) of healing the target and 18,9% (0,42*0,45) of killing the target.

    In 2 hit event the dead appears only when both PH rolls are failed thus ending in 20,25% (0,45*0,45) of killing the target the rest is atleast one succesfull roll thus healing the target on 79,75%. Again when multiplied by the probablity of the 2 hit event we get 39,0775% (0,7975*0,49) for healing the target and 9,9225% (0,2025*0,49) for killing the target.

    Now when we sum total probablity for each event we get:

    62,1775% to Heal the target,
    28,8225% to Kill the target,
    9% to nothing happening.

    Hope it is understandable for more people.
     
    #37 Alri, Nov 7, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  18. NauticalSoup

    NauticalSoup Member

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    I'm new to the game - these numbers only apply when you're using a paramedic in a sufficiently large fireteam to get +1B, right? Or in the case of dynamos... in a duo, if they're both paramedics?
     
  19. Stampysaur

    Stampysaur Wallace is my LT

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    That is correct, the only way you are getting 2 shots is through fireteam bonuses, the troop possessing a medikit +1 B, or a coordinated order.
     
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  20. NauticalSoup

    NauticalSoup Member

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    Is this actually a thing? Do any units have this?
     
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