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Jumping to death

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by tezeech, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Forcing a Kuang Shi so get an epileptic seizure and then doctoring it up is super cheesy, according to you then? An “exploit” even?
    Please, do go on about how leaving your TAG out of position to get Overlorded, having your opponent burn half his order pool to make sure that the TAG he spend orders on now dies, is somehow him being an unsportsmanlike cheeser?
    On top of all this, I find all of you people’s arguments to be incredibly flawed. Even if I jump some dude of a roof, there’s still a chance for him to pass the save or fail them all and then have nothing to heal back up. All of this costs orders to do, usually you never opt to do classified anyways if, your opponent actually can stop you. Same way you FO an unconscious body and so on, which also has no counter play.

    As for the TAG, well you’re not really supposed to have a counterplay against that move. Technically speaking, that TAG is dead anyways, as possession is a null state. Furthermore, how are you even going to stop people from throwing themselves off the roof? Measure after declaring and if it’s insta death, his action is cancelled?
     
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Sedral Considering the existence of "button-pusher" style missions in general, Infinity has plenty of non-interactive gameplay to begin with.
     
  3. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    I wanted to requote this as the last time I got distracted.

    Essentially, what you are telling me is that you have no problem with people using jump to hurt friendly units
    No problem with people declaring jump to get little-no risk classifieds like test run and experimental drug
    No problem with people jumping their Lts to prevent the opponent from scoring them by killing them themselves
    No problem with people declaring jump to kill their own units so that the game ends early

    all these things are fine and good and dandy?
     
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  4. Sedral

    Sedral White Banner Officier

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    Yes, because this is obviously not the intended use of the skill. Though, since only one unit is concerned here, i guess using brainwashed prisonners as lab rat for experimental drugs could be seen as a faction feature.

    I didn't say anything about possessed TAGs jumping to their death, personally i'm fine with it. If you can't protect your 80+ point investment against it's most obvious weakness then maybe you deserve to lose it. With a bunch of hacker and a decent repeater net, you can make it really hard for your opponent to actually move around with his newly acquired TAG without taking Exorcism AROs on the way.

    One has to reach the button before pushing it. If your opponent can do so freely, it's either because he dealt with the stuff you left in the way (AROs, mines, etc...) or because you decided to leave him alone and therefore can't really blame him.
     
  5. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    For me, the ruling itself sounds okay.
    You deploy something pricey, you want it to do stuff, and sometimes you don't want it to die. With the latter, you have options to sustain it; most logical one is to take a risk when you are moving your tag too close to the enemys reach, or to not risk it all. Counterhackers, LoF coverage etc. Argument that losing 1/4 of your army to such dirty (yet still legit) tactic is an exploit isn't really strong. Opponent managed to do that because you failed with preventing it.

    That said, it hurts me that you cannot undo that while you still have a pilot inside the TAG. I am fine with Overlording it back, or Exorcising it ofc, these are wonderful options. If you cannot do these, it is still not enemys fault.
    Yet i still would love to see an option for your pilot to do something about it, even if it would be just one WIP - 6 roll once per round.
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Or because your faction doesn't have minelayer and you're up against a faction with eclipse grenades, so even MSV doesn't help. Or, hell, USAriadna has no minelayer and no MSV2.
     
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  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Citations please?

    1. No, for reasons I stated before.

    2. No, for reasons I stated before.

    3. No, they are most likely wasting their orders anyways, orders they aren’t using to score and please demonstrate how this have ever been abused, before and perhaps I’d listen.

    4. False, jump is not an ARO and even if you jump your entire army to the point of Retreat! Your opponent would still get an entire round to freely push buttons and get an easy major victory, before the game ends on your next round.
     
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  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    There are scenarios and situations where jumping most of your army to death will still effectively strip the othwr player of agency.

    Supplies would be one example if you had camo units well hidden with the boxes.
    Highly classified would be another depending on the draw where ypu could score a handful of classifieds then cpmmit mass suicide for an easy win.


    As to the others.
    You'd be one of the few that would not dislike such play
     
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  9. Herr Hörn

    Herr Hörn Well-Known Member

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    I think that jumping a possessed TAG to death is fine. It's possessed temporarily after all. If I was a hacker and able to temporarily control an opposing TAG, I'd try my best to kill it, and throwing it off a cliff is reasonable. It's a realistic approach.

    Impetous units jumping of rooftops is a bordercase for me. Especially if they have C+, in which case running up the building and jumping off it would very often be the quickest way. Though this one is under discussion, so I won't mention it more than that.

    Jumping your own units to unconsciousness to fulfill objectives is bad. I don't think too many soldiers would be keen to jump of a roof so that the paramedic can field-test his latest concoction. It's just weird. Same goes for REMs of course. I think that's an issue with classifieds moreso than the rules though, there's not too many other reasons to do it.

    The weirdest part for me though is how falling damage is incremented. Falling even 1 inch is a damage 10 slap to the face. Falling 5 inches is for most units more damage than a TAG-fired HMG. And falling is also fire ammunition (the floor is lava???). I mean, this means that most units are capble of standing still and jump high enough to die. Even a Maghariba could jump 1 inch straight up, and then casually break down all the way to dead with bad luck as it hits the ground.

    Falling damage needs to change. Maybe falling less than your first MOV renders you stunned or Immobilized, I don't know. But right now it is very weird.
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You mean, the program that cannot be used as an ARO because it's labeled as Short Skill, and the page 246 of the Core Rulebook (quick reference chart for orders) lists as Short Order, but not ARO?
    Unlike Overlord and Total Control, listed as ARO (Overlord is also listed as short skill).
     
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  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Not legal, as markers cannot carry them

    Weasel words. Bad thing to build an argument on.
    How would you even have orders enough to complete your objectives AND THEN proceed to have orders left to move + climb + jump your entire army to death, to the point were you are in Retreat!? Forgive my skepticism but that seems entirely unlikely.

    Citations? Sources?
     
  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Actually, yes.. That seems like a totally bad thing and even an oversight.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I think 5 Damage rather than 10 is a good place to start. Someone unlucky can trip over and knock themselves unconscious while jumping but you have to be really exceptionally unlucky to trip and die.

    It also makes TAGs and some HI effectively immune to falling up to their Move, making Jumping off buildings more appealing than Climbing in some circumstances.

    It also significantly reduces the efficiency of the suiciding TAGs (and while I don't disagree with outlawing it entirely, it is a touch too efficient at present) or mass suiciding to induce Retreat (which I don't really think is an issue).
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    It's not falling damage that's unrealistic, but the height that you can jump up.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it has to do with the whole "started" increment thing. It makes falls really dangerous. Typically, you are incapable of jumping high enough for the fall downwards to be dangerous (sure, you can trip and fall, but you can also run into a wall and die, but I don't see why either of those should be simulated). Jump vertically from the curb as far as you can? Take 10 fall damage. Do the same for the same distance but onto the curb from the street? Take no damage.
    If the fall damage was calculated as each completed increment, I think it would encourage people to use verticality a bit more (not saying people don't use verticality, but I'm of the opinion it's awkward enough that it needs to be encouraged rather than discouraged by the rules). I'd also make Extremely Impetuous a whole lot less... daft?

    Plus what IJW wrote about height potential.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but Rule of Cool applies :)
     
  17. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    My 2p as regards to Falling Damage was only it didn't seem to make sense that it's a flat DAM10 per {# inches}. I always thought it should be a bit more nuanced than that; e.g. DAM equal to {distance}+5.
     
  18. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, any action where it is advantageous for a friendly trooper to be harmed is poor game design imo. Shooting a friendly trooper in the foot or pushing them off a ledge so we can complete an objective by fixing them is ridiculous.

    However, ordering troopers to take extremely dangerous actions for strategic benefit like clearing mines, drawing fire, push a button etc, is fine.

    Overlord is a bit of an exception. What i mean is, a possessed enemy unit becoming a friendly unit is a mistake in rule design, imo. The program should be reworked in some way so the trooper remains an enemy unit. Because if I have control over an enemy unit for whatever reason, I'm going to use it or kill it as I see fit. This includes shooting it or tossing it off a cliff. In other words, I treat it differently than an ally. The program should either be reworked to allow this, or if it's too powerful, change the Overlord program. But the current situation where a possessed trooper is a friend so I can't shoot it, but I can inflict falling dmg, is a mistake.

    So, as I see it, falling dmg is not an issue at all. The issue is with some missions, classifieds, and Overlord. I want to see these adjusted so players don't exploit rules to cause allies dmg in order to complete other objectives. I'm with @daboarder in that if shooting allies to intentionally cause wounds isn't allowed in the rules, then using falling dmg to intentionally cause wounds is an exploit. Taking unnecessary risks with a friendly trooper hoping for the same result is the grey area. While jumping up and down is black and white.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Am I the only one that doesn't see a problem with injuring your own units for classifieds (that much, anyway)? I mean, these are supposed to be clandestine operations already... who's to say your doctor didn't get orders from higher ups to test this new drug "at all costs", including inducing injury to test it if necessary. It's easy enough to order a REM to damage itself (people do that to their computers all the time!), they don't necessarily have survival instincts. Jumping troopers to their deaths does seem a tad odd, simply because they DO have survival instincts (though I'm also not as animated by the impetuous discussion), but I would need some convincing before I would say that shooting your own troops to complete classifieds would be bad for gameplay (I, of course, realize that it's against the rules).
     
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  20. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    The actual problem are the classifieds that require your opponent to do something to your model or for you to apply suicide to your own model to accomplish.

    Test Run and Experimental drug need to be changed and these discussions cease. The TAG possessions is separate and compeltely thematic, but I do agree Overlord and Total Control are too good as is.
     
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