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Jump+Super-jump+Impetuous

Discussion in 'Rules' started by avanst, Mar 25, 2018.

  1. avanst

    avanst Member

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    Weird question about how jumping interacts with impetuous + super-jump.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fury

    The legal combination of skills for an impetuous order are:
    IMPETUOUS ORDER
    Legal combinations of Skills

    Airborne Deployment
    Move + Activate (Activate + Move)
    Move + Attack (Attack + Move)
    Move + Dodge (Dodge + Move)
    Move + Idle (Idle + Move)
    Move + Move
    Jump
    Climb

    When you have super-jump special skill it makes the "jump" skill a Short Movement Skill (Blue Box). However, it does not change the Legal combination of any skills used during an impetuous order.

    Because "jump" is not a "move" skill you can never combine a jump with any of the listed options above (activate, attack, dodge, idle)
    So if you have super-jump are you forced to use the newly accessed Entire Order Skill version of super-jump due to the legal combination of skills?
     
  2. Contaminator

    Contaminator Brigadier of Baguette Brigade

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    Based on the logic of the sentences you provided you have your answer.

    Additionally, from the wiki: Super-Jump allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Jump + BS Attack, for example) while jumping in the air.
     
  3. avanst

    avanst Member

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    But this is not a valid Impetuous Order combination. The reason I am confirming is because a lot of people have Dog Warriors ect that jump and throw smoke. Which technically they cannot do as part of their impetuous order.
     
  4. bona

    bona Active Member

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    My reading is it turns jump into move. Therefore jumping and shooting isn’t jump + shoot, it is actually classified as move +shoot.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  5. avanst

    avanst Member

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    But it doesn't make it the Move short skill.
     
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Consider the Chimera (Nomads, extreme impetuous) have Climbing Plus and has to use it during the Extremely Impetuous, and both skills are worded almost 100% similarly to one another...
    I'd say yeah, you have to Jump as the obligatory first Move action (and the second, if you choose to do a move+move) if that reduces the amount of orders you need to perform to reach the closest enemy troop (that is not in marker state, nor is a piece of equipment, etc...).
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    C+ and Superjump work quite differently. This has been well established. And yes, it creates lots of confusion.
    • An Impetuous trooper with C+ that wants to climb up a wall and shoot declares Move+BS Attack. Because C+ changes how the Move skill operates.
    • Whereas Superjump just makes Jump a short skill. So the declaration would be Jump+BS Attack.

    On the other hand, disallowing Jump+BS Attack is just dull; it's clearly intended to be allowed. Just allow it.
     
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  8. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Super-Jump
    SUPER-JUMP AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Movement, Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • This Special Skill alters the user's Jump Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.
    • It also allows the user to jump vertically, diagonally or horizontally as many inches as the first value of his MOV Attribute.
    • Super-Jump allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Jump + BS Attack, for example) while jumping in the air.
    • The user may declare the Jump Skill as an Entire Order to add up both his MOV values into one single mighty jump.
    • However, as with the Jump Skill, the user cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs while in the air. The user of Super-Jump may benefit from Partial Cover MODs (assuming all other requirements are met) while on the ground, at the beginning and end of the jump.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Climbing_Plus
    CLIMBING PLUS AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Optional.
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS

    • This Special Skill alters the user's Climb Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.
    • Climbing Plus allows the user to move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground.
    • Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move + BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface.
    • However, as with the Climb Skill, the user cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs as long as he is on a vertical surface.
    • In his Reactive Turn, the user of Climbing Plus may react in ARO normally despite holding onto a vertical surface.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fury
    • A trooper using an Impetuous Order can move a distance shorter than the maximum only if he reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement or forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving.
    So. You can't jump upwards to see an enemy with the Impetuous order. But if you reach a border... well, you are forced to declare Jump, with the maximum horizontal reach you can without suffering an injury on the way down (as I interpret the RAI) in order to reduce the number of Orders required to reach the closest enemy troop (so you cannot jump 1 smidge of a unit because you spent all the movement jumping up and down).
     
  9. Contaminator

    Contaminator Brigadier of Baguette Brigade

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    I'm confused. One of the legal combinations is Move+Attack. Super Jump turns Jump, which is a Long movement skill ,into a short movement skill. So its just a move. Then an attack. Which "BS Attack" is. This seems legal to me.
     
  10. bona

    bona Active Member

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    That’s what I read as well, but the argument is that it makes jump a short movement skill called jump, not the short movement called move.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
     
  11. avanst

    avanst Member

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    Even the wiki links the "Move" part of these legal order combination to the "Move" short movement skill.

    Also remember if you start to say that Short Movement skills are replaceable for "Move" then I can discover as my obligatory "Move" of my impetuous troopers order. And Jump does not become "Move"
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Then neither would Climbing Plus, so the Chimera (Bakunin) would not expose herself to fire from everywhere all the time...
     
  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    To repeat myself: no.

    C+ modifies the Move skill to allow you to move up vertical surfaces as well as making Climb a Short Movement Skill. Whereas Superjump just makes Jump a Short Movement Skill.

    In that example it's clear that the Reaktion zond declares Move + BS Attack and not Climb-as-a-Short-Movement-Skill + BS Attack.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Ok, I think I see where our miscommunication comes. Your point is the part where Cimbing Plus says "move along vertical surfaces as if executing a normal Movement on horizontal ground" (a line that cannot be added to Super Jump) because of the use of Movement with a capital "M". This will require clarification from the staff, because it can be read not as "changes climbing to Movement", but as "when using Climbing, thanks to the Plus, you move over vertical surfaces like you do over horizontal ones if you want".

    Incidentally, it might seem that a Climbing Plus troop can, in fact, climb prone...

    Anyway, I think RAW, at this moment, Climbing plus MUST be used as part of the Impetuous order, but Super Jump cannot, because of that line I bolded and underscored in this post.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    This list is exhaustive. You can't use Jump as a short-skill using Super-Jump. Move in the list is Move, the skill, not "Short Movement Skill".
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Please read the next Effect bullet point of Climbing Plus:
    • Climbing Plus allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Move+ BS Attack, for example) while moving along or holding onto a vertical surface.
     
  17. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    that is no different from the SuperJump bullet point #3 (allowing for the differences between "moving along or holding onto" and "jumping in the air", thus I was disregarding it as relevant to stablish why Superjump cannot be used as the move of a Fury-related order while Climbing Plus can.
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's different because it explicitly lets the trooper declare the Move Short Movement Skill while on a wall. Super-Jump does not let you declare Move while in mid-air.
     
  19. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    The actual reason as I see it, though it's never explicitly stated, is climbing plus allows climbing as part of a move short order, which is allowed to be part of an impetuous order, but super jump makes the jump skill into a short order, and jump isn't allowed.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Completely agree on the RAW argument, disagree on the RAI. And there's other examples where we quietly ignore these sort of issues (or at least we have done).
     
    Icchan, Zewrath, xagroth and 2 others like this.