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Jayths are awful and overcosted and need adjustment

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Weathercock, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. Jumara

    Jumara Well-Known Member

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    I would really like them to get Move 6-2 as they are massive Models and that would work great with their current kit and maybe get them Shock immunity but otherwise let them be as they are.

    Otherwise getting Eclips smoke would make them fairly unique and push them. but that may be to much for Shas as smoke is limited to Speculo's
     
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  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Also, anything can effect vanilla, which is already powerful. Both need to be taken into account.

    I think the simplest thing is to give them Frenzy to make the price come down. And to me seems thematic for them.
     
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  3. bladerunner_35

    bladerunner_35 Well-Known Member

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    A perfect time to try things out with Fireteam special rules, like the Tarlok Fireateam. Nicely circumvents adding to vanilla.

    A HD Haris would be super cool and thematic. Imagine Sargosh and his favourite crew of pitfighters tunnelling up from underneath you! The horror (the horror).

    Not very broken if they have to deploy in your DZ and be pure.
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I really like the idea of tying it to special Fireteam bonus
     
  5. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    An HD linkteam is just too swingy. Also precisely noting each member’s position is a pain in the neck, even if you use the photo method. Both balance and ease of play make this seem like a bad idea.

    A single trooper (and a good one like Sargosh), sure. A whole link, nope.
     
  6. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
    Warcor

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    I think they need to be 6-2 impetuous or frenzied, they need some sort of point discount.
     
  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    When revising an existing unit, a light touch is often the best approach.

    @Stiopa ’s suggestions for the more-basic statline changes are good ones (still not down with the HD linkteam idea, but the basic bits would help make the unit better:



    I’d add keeping MSV1 on one profile, probably the ideal SMG defensive one.

    Even just a bit of FD to make defensive use of that MSV1 SMG profile really sing and the other profiles more aggressive, then a big points discount on the rest of a Haris, would bring these into playable range.

    I’m less sure about ARM 2 as it would bring costs back up. Kinda feels like their PH dodging will serve as well as ARM.

    6-2 would also definitely help.

    Then make Sargosh the surprise-HD-Explode guy and you’ve got a unit that really says “Shas can get nas-tay.”
     
  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Oh and like the rest of Shas, as well as several other armies, allowing a second Haris in place of a Core would make Jayth see table time 100% more.

    Gwailo win the “If I only get one Haris I guess it’s gotta be this one…” contest most of the time in that army. Being able to have both would open a whole new playstyle for Shas, with two decent small links (Nox with Sheskiin not withstanding)
     
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  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I'm all for making sure that the rework won't break a unit in question in the other direction, but in this case any changes need to take into account the competition, especially Calibans. Main question for any unit is always: what do I need it for? Why would it be better in this role than any other unit I can take? One for one, Calibans will win this comparison; they have Camo, don't need to advance into midfield because they already start there, can get much more durable using Protheion and have the tools to do so, and share much of the Jayths weapon set with them. In my opinion they're too good a package, and this screws internal balance a bit. That's why my initial idea involved nerfing them a bit, making sure that they aren't as good in CC as Jayths, allowing the latter to provide something of value with less competition for it.

    So if Jayths advantages over Calibans should be their CC prowess and access to fireteams both should be emphasised. As much as I don't like Frenzy discount on linkable units this might be the one unit which really merits it. Frenzy, MOV 6/2, Forward Deployment 4", Caliban CC downsized a bit, should work. But I still like the idea of HD better :P

    Would love SEF getting a second Haris, that's for sure, this army always had a rough time fielding fireteams which oftentimes made it a better option to simply run Shas-themed vanilla CA. I think fielding multiple small teams fit them better than relying on a Core. But allowing more armies to do so would really squeeze QK design space when it's finally time for their rework, unless CB will get creative with QK fireteam flexibility using keywords and special fireteam bonuses.
     
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  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    There’s a thread on here somewhere with a very good idea: Allow -all- armies to take a second Haris if they don’t take a Core.

    So not taking a Core -and- two Harises: but taking two Harises and -no- Core. For everyone, all factions as a general rule.

    It unlocks a lot of those quirky Harises like Jayths that are outcompeted by other Harises that cover faction weak-spots (like the Gwailo Haris does for Shas, or like the fun Taskmaster-Morlocks Haris which would be great in doubles).

    That shouldn’t overtake the design space of the Core -and- 2x Haris factions IMO (…hopefully to one day include QK again!).
     
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  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    uhh... how does this change anything? You can run a 3 man Core which is just a Haris by another name with your actual Haris.

    I do this with White Banner already. 3 Man Ye Mao/Jujak core plus a Monk Haris, double Haris list functionally.
     
  12. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Because some fireteams only have Duo/Haris options, and if you take it you can't field any other fireteam which has only the same options. In this context if you field Jayth Haris you can't field Gwailo Haris, and vice versa.
     
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  13. AmPm

    AmPm Well-Known Member

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    The problem with Jayth is that they are a close range unit that starts in your DZ and doesn't have the durability to get past midfield skirmishers or warbands, so it get's eliminated by cheap templates all day. The only version of it worth looking at is the Red Fury, and that's as a mid range gunfighter, and you are probably still better off with the Caliban.

    Frenzy would be a good place to start. But it needs a role. Unfortunately CC is a terrible role in Infinity, especially if you start at a distance. It's really more of an opportunistic ability just in case.
     
  14. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I see Jayths more as a CQB unit, with their CC being a useful fallback against otherwise hard to bite targets.

    They were additionally screwed by the N4 change to shotguns, which suddenly gave large number of units access to DTWs. This isn't an enviroment in which a squishy 1W-no-NWI-or-ARM unit relying on ODD for survival wants to find itself in.
     
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  15. Morganus

    Morganus Evolved Emotional Intelligence

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    It's probably a crazy idea, but I would actually go for that route and make them capable of being in a duo/harris/core mixed linkteam with Haiduk, using same AVAs as we have now. I would give Strategic deployment to one profile, probably the SMG one (without Taigha). So that would cost 122 points for a basic core with 2 AP Marksman Haiduk, and as the defensive core would be deployed 10 cm closer to the enemy, the Haiduk would have better midfield overwatch, and Jayths a headstart when they finished babysitting the sniper elements. With 2 MULTI Sniper Haiduk such a core would cost around 130 points, and that is much more than a 2 Kamau + 3 Fusilier core, but then again Jayths could pick off the leftovers, or sneaky enemy units closing in, much more easily than Fusiliers. Fluffwise I would love to see Jayth also having the Sapper rule, but that would probably not help them that much. It would make sense to me that they are the ones digging out foxholes for the snipers they would protect, and that their NBW skill also means that they are digged in so much so that they simply do not care if you are 9th Dan sensei or whatnot. :D
     
  16. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't see an issue of simply removing the fireteam limit altogether. If someone wants to tie up ten of their slots in two core teams, let them. If someone wants to play Tohaa without being Tohaa, let them. Because of the weakness of sectorial vs vanilla, I'm all for loosening some of the chains keeping them down.

    Re; the Jayth in particular, I think at the end of the day, the solution lies in reducing the points cost more than anything else. Frenzy discount is honestly fine in my book - its a way to selectively just bring the cost down for models that are generally weaker and link reliant. They could also benefit from a cheaper link filler such as Tensho or Nox at AVA 1 in the team to bring down the average cost. I feel the core idea of the unit is just not something that can be very viable in the game at the cost that its at, and a couple of little tweaks are going to struggle to bring them up to par.

    That said, an SEF-exclusive eclipse Jayth would be pretty sick.
     
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  17. Bignoob

    Bignoob Well-Known Member

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    Call me crazy, but I think they need a significant buff, way above just frenzy and 6-2 (which would be a bare minimum). And I wouldn’t nerf Calibans to make insanely overpriced Jayth somewhat a choice to consider.

    Maybe if they had berserk, or smoke grenades, maybe even both, it would give them a purpose. Because they are pricey ! A Harris of them costs almost 100 points to be viable. 100!!!!

    And I’d say, even with smoke AND berserk I’m not sure they’d be ok. Imagine…

    For (almost) the same price as a Jayth Harris you can field 2 speculos, 3 Taighas, 1 Ikadron and 1 R drone.

    Imagine. Would you rather have 2 speculos to throw two grenades from anywhere you want on the table, and then having 3 Taighas to alpha strike (since they can each move up to 20 inches before eating regular orders), backed by the 2 other regular orders?

    Or would you rather have 3 Jayth, wipeable by a single light shotgun template hit, with berserk and smoke grenades? With only 3 orders to move forward at 4-4 once, move again 4 to then throw a smoke grenade, and… Berserk to nowhere?

    Obviously:
    - it’s bad to look at things in a vacuum
    - both setups would fit a different role, namely that setup 1, with speculos, can’t push any button (but then again, replace a speculo with a Caliban engineer in setup 1, you’re miles ahead in terms of what these 100 points can do)
    - setup 2 (Jayth) takes less unit slots
    - and you could replace one of the Jayth with a wildcard, to make this hypothetical smoke and berserk Harris more viable

    But that is to say that even with a significant buff (berserk and smoke grenades, at no additional cost) they still could be left aside.
     
    #117 Bignoob, Jun 11, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2023
  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is an interesting perspective.
     
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  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    By the background they are supposed to be sturdier and bulkier. But hard to say because Shasvastii have no standard. Their PH13 is higher than most but their armor is 0. Which to me if you are doing boarding actions, they should have Nano-screens or be HI.

    I think that would make them seem stronger/tougher.
    Nano-screens
    +1 dmg DA CCW
    Dogged/NWI/Shock Immune

    To represent the tunneling aspect
    Combat Jump
    Infiltration
    Forward deployment

    Other things that could make them more interesting
    Protheon
    Dodge +3
    Regular boarding shotgun
    Pulsar instead of chain rifle
    E-mauler
     
    #119 Space Ranger, Jun 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2023
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  20. Bignoob

    Bignoob Well-Known Member

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    I like the fact you’re considering aesthetics and lore to try to build a meaningful unit.

    Mine was more tying to find a slot for a potential non-game breaking role. If I have one mild complaint with current lists and unit profiles across the game, is that some units have close to no reason to ever be selected because there are simply better alternatives. Alternatively that there are autopic units. Diversity is a crucial element to enjoy a game in the long run. Tunnelling factions/sectorials toward streamlined lists is what hurts the most imho the enjoyment of a game, any game, including Infinity (reason I was so disappointed in the Bulleteer nerf… that basically brings less diversity from the fact they certainly were not autopick units. Anyway… I digress).

    While combat jump/fwd dep/infiltration could fit the lore, there are I believe already enough units that do so in Shas. And that would still be a better pick (Caliban mainly). Also, these would imply no fireteam.

    By the way, hehe. What could be pretty cool to convey the tunnelling lore (completely new rule), would be that they would for example only be able to join as of the second turn somewhere on the map, as a Harris, but only spawn on the ground (not on top of buildings)… And if that would be OP (oh look! Sheskiin just spawned right in front of your face!), force the Harris to have Sargosh (pricey) and mention that no wildcard can be used in that FT.

    Anyway, I digress again…

    I was thinking Smoke / Berserk in the sense that maybe something that Shas doesn’t have is a kind of assault/ambushing, squishy but deadly, Harris (a bit maybe like a Gaki fireteam). But to fit that role well, they’d need to also have 6-2 on top of berserk and smoke. At this point they could start being considered.

    Having Dodge +3 as you mention would give them some flavour. I like that!
     
    #120 Bignoob, Jun 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2023
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