Is your local player trying to run a pure Jayth Haris or is he using them to back up Victor or Sheskin? Pure Haris probably not so hot, the 25pt profile is reasonable enough as link support for Sheskin or Victor (or both).
I was saying in another thread, that I think the Jayth are great for defense rather than moving them up the board. Especially the SMG. Maybe the Pit Patrol as well. I don't like the very close range weapons but you put a Jayth into suppression in the deployment zone and he's going to be really hard to deal with. Not bad for countering Infiltrators, Impersonators, and combat jump troops. He can't be smoked like a Q-Drone too. I would take the Pit Patrol as guards for the Lt. In Decapitation. The SMG is good for guarding the AC2 Unit in L&S, Beacon in Capture & Protect, Servers in Mindwipe, Biotechvore Antenna, etc. They can start in Suppression and then counters anyone that gets in contact with it with CC. For Zone control missions they can also be good for zones close to the deployment. Move a few inches and go into suppression.
The other army that I play is MO. I think a few units in within MO can be fairly compared, at least in the sense of role, to those within SEF. Jayth really could get the Teuton treatment. Give them impetuous, and smoke nades and I would be happy to put a couple 17 point jayths on the board...heck even without the smoke. Its a pretty simple thing to fix these guys. How many of us would have a Sheskiin and a couple jayth bodyguards in a harris at that cost? I totally agree with the OP, these sculpts are too good to be left in the bin because of an unfinished game design.
Sadly that's a few of their figures. CB does great figures but they need to work on their rules. Not everything should be or can be fantastic though. Sometimes they are just horse calvary charges through minefields, towards automatic weapons because it's a troop that hasn't been updated to the times.
Devil's advocate here: we generally accept the game design of Infinity that allows for a set of units in each faction to be grossly undercosted. Why then kick up a rumpus over those units that are overcosted? Jayth are bully units that can apply pressure and defend well, ruin HI and TAGs with their EM grenades, and can leverage -6 mimetism & good CC. Obviously, CB think that in Shasvaasti, that particular skill set should cost ... well, more. It's not an error, as far as I can see; its a decision. Seed Soldiers, Taighas and Caliban are all clearly undercosted, because their skill sets are central to Shas identity and playstyle; Jayth have a tax attached because, while they do offer a Shas list something that it otherwise wouldn't have access to, CB don't want them to have access to such units at a standard or discounted price.
There's something to be said for a faction/sectoral a whole as well. It's why sometimes it's not good to compare troops. While a troops might be considered cheap to some, it might be the only troop like it in faction. I'm not sure if it's the case here but it might be, but there's not many Mim -6, MSV1 troops out there. Especially with their CC ability.
So following these thoughts, is there any way to make utilise of the box of Jayths and the extra one in the booster in the same list? It's not often I find this sorta model to my liking, but they did a great job on the Jayths and I'm curious.
I have no experience actually using them yet. From what I see though I still think they are great for defense-holding missions. The missions you know the enemy needs to send their own DA CCW and D-Charges. Counter Ninjas, Fidays, etc. If you really want to be aggressive with them you can but it's going to take a bit of work. Great against factions that have very little MSV or very dense terrain would be ideal. Again I haven't used them, but they don't seem to be "do everything" troops. They are meant for particular mission and factions.
Usually when people say something is overcosted it's in a figurative sense. The idea is that they're paying for skills that are undesirable or undesirably costed, or a combination of skills that bloat a figures cost and don't really make them effective at doing a particular job. Then there's Qiang Gao who is literally overcosted paying the wrong points cost for shit and still hasn't been fixed. Jayth are pretty much like Chaksa Longarms, their problem is you don't want a full fireteam of them but they exist in a sectorial which by design has exceedingly limited options to mix and match their fireteams. Jayth are just a competent HMG/FB equipped pointman away from being a desirable building block unit for a Haris fireteam the same way Longarms are actually a scary addition to WinterFo while being an utter joke in their home force, Spiral Corp. Realistically this is a common issue with N4 and the power creep of wildcard/mixed fireteams it's more or less utterly invalidated any pure fireteams as a concept this isn't really the fault of the Jayth.
This right here. And I'm not saying the other ideas are bad, because they are not. But man, I love these types of profiles but can never justify them, so this idea really appeals to me. Maybe as an SEF profile, since SEF seems to be into that (why can't the other sectorials learn from them)
I've been trying to make a point of running Jayth in my lists recently just to give them an airing and a fair crack of the whip. To be honest I don't find them to be awful, in fact they can be awesome under the right circumstances but points cost is prohibitive I have struggled to run a Haris but have run Duos and find a lot of use for the Pit Patrol as an area denial piece. They are certainly an expensive option but I'm finding players are learning to respect them and become wary once they spot them on the table. Whilst they are close range troops, if you can manouvre them successfully, they are a great toolbox troop for dealing with TAGs, HIs and fireteams. I find them excellent in the objective room missions. If you can get them into the room first they can be a pain for your opponent to shift and you can lock the room down with mines, templates and Supp. Fire if you run the SMG or the Red Fury. That said, I have to say it takes a fair bit of work to fit them into a list and it can sometimes be difficult to sacrifice a Caliban for a Jayth, so I think you have to consider the mission and opponent's faction of choice during army selection. In a tournament I would have to consider very carefully about taking them and this would depend heavily on the mission selection but having now used them in a good few games and to moderate success I believe they certainly have their merits and wouldn't just simply rule them out completely.
Their own background has them as ship boarding action troops. They are now planet side where their skills are not as useful. But you make do with the troops you have, not the ones you want. But then I whine and cry about Yu Jing troops so... I'm a hypocrite.
Planet side? Sure, except when using some of the beautiful tables where they are designed as ship internals ;)
Sorry for the necro, but I had some ideas about how to change Jayth and would like them saved in a proper place: Statline: ARM 2/3 Equipment: No MSV1 Skills: Hidden Deployment, Surprise Attack (-3), Sixth Sense, Forward Deployment (+4") Sargosh: As above, but additionally getting Strategic Deployment and Explode. This would make them more expensive, but also better able to take advantage of their CC prowess, as well as to provide SEF with another surprise tool. It'd require to introduce interaction between Hidden Deployment and Fireteams, but I think it's pretty easily solvable. Potentially it'd allow SEF to field a hidden Haris up to 8" beyond their DZ, but for a hefty price and using glass cannon units to balance it. It might require some further balancing, though (maybe reducing their ARM and BTS?). I like the idea of CQB troops tunneling into position and then entering the battlefield with a bang, but I wouldn't want it to be crazy broken. Additionally, I'd gave those MSV1s to all Caliban troops, while reducing their CC to 21 and their MA to L2. This would make them competing with Jayth less when it comes to CC prowess, while still being useful, and not getting cheaper.
Well, I remember running into your Jayth Haris once, @Stiopa. Couldn't effectively shoot them, as they have -6 Mimetism. Couldn't reliably engage them in CC, due to NBW, MArts and high CC. Couldn't really smoke my way to them to use a DTW, because MSV L1. That makes them very difficult to counter, unless a MSV can be applied. And if a Red Fury is present, they can get enough mid-range firepower of their own.
I remember that game, it was a Jayth/Messer Haris, and I remember using White Noise to get one of the Jayths into CC with your MSV unit in a building in the midfield. Thing is, I would be able to accomplish the same using Caliban, which are a terrific unit. It was back in N3, so using smoke to approach them would be an option, but I agree it's not one now. Jayths problem is that they're a solution looking for a problem, while competing with Caliban - who share a lot of their tool set - at the same time. So my solution would be to keep Jayths CC-focused, while toning down Caliban CC ability, and making them more about CQB shootouts. More than buffed I'd like Jayths to be moved sideways, so they have a niche of their own, and I'm not left wondering, what task they can perform one of my other units can't do better, more cost-effectively, or both. Problem is, it's hard to move them sideways if they're to keep their current weapon loadouts and CC skills. Maybe allowing them to form Core fireteams - or just joining Nox ones - would give them more breathing space. I'm not claiming that my idea is balanced, just interesting. Removing Hidden Deployment and Explode - while leaving everything else - would still help, I guess. On a sidenote, despite Pit Patrol's Taigha having mines instead of DTW, I see a use for that particular unit. Unless I'm missing something you can use it to Berserk out of control, as it'd enter Disconnected state only at the end of its order - at which point it's probably dead, anyway. So it can kill or soften a target for its controller to finish off.
Giving Sargosh a profile (one of 2) with Hidden Deployment, Surprise Attack, and Explode is one of the coolest ideas I’ve heard for Infinity in a -long- time, @Stiopa . HD on the basic Jayths would be interesting but not with a Haris. Profiles with HD that can’t link seem like a decent approach. In fact, splitting the Jayth into at least one more profile seems like a good idea period. Separate the MSV1 onto a single unit (maybe the SMG, to keep it attractive). Points break for the others. I don’t think Mim -6 units that can throw White Noise are abusive any more than MSV units that can throw smoke. If you’ve ever played Moiras, you know Mim -6 and White Noise can be handy but is not overpowered.
I adore the idea of a Hidden Deployment haris, especially on a unit like Jayths that are not exactly hitting the power ceiling for the game right now. Makes the unit very unique and its still likely to be quite mediocre afterwards. Thumbs down on the MSV Caliban concept though. They are already extremely pushed and I don't feel they warrant getting a useful bit of kit like that on their non-spitfire profiles.
