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Jayths are awful and overcosted and need adjustment

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Weathercock, Dec 4, 2020.

  1. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a new idea, people have been making the same type of complaints about profiles like this since second edition. Looking at you, Teutons!

    I want to run the red fury one in vanilla (since we don't get the taigha option, even though we do get the Morat unit of the same type??) but jesus 38 points is a hard sell. Only thing it has going for it is that its main competition, the Caliban, has so many other useful profiles but only AVA 1.
     
  2. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    At that point it’s in competition with the Suryat HRL + MSV1.
     
  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Who can go in a Core with Vanguards or more Morat HI XD
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    For points, yes. But I don't see these profiles really overlapping in application. Do people use the suryat as a sweeper or attack piece in vanilla? It's not my favorite personally
     
  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Sure, but not in Vanilla.
    I dunno, I would consider it, same as a Jayth. Neither one just leaps out at me as the best way to spend my points / SWC.
     
  6. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I agree with that. Jayth red fury is an ok unit that costs too much IMO. Other Jayth (pit patrol excluded) have no place outside of links - and in those links, the different profiles offer a ton of redundant options and little of value to the link.

    Its crazy, because a Jayth seem very similar to a Myrmidon with MSV1 and no smoke, and costs quite a lot more. Shows the effect that Frenzy has I guess
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    and getting +2 CC, changing MA3 (and courage & stealth for NBW and Berserker, smoke for EM grenades (same speculative %) and getting MSV1...
     
    #27 xagroth, Dec 6, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
    WarHound likes this.
  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    And -2 arm, no nanopulsar etc etc... all sorts of minor stat and gear shuffles that are mostly a wash outside of msv. Dunno where you got berserk or a difference of MA levels from though.
     
  9. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah, I'm not actually convinced that ARM 0 BTS 6 is actually better than ARM 2 BTS 0. I have no idea what the points cost difference in the two is, of course.
     
  10. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I would hope BTS 6 is less than ARM 2, definitely a more niche effect and most models with a BTS attack have an ARM attack too - but not vice versa.
     
    toadchild likes this.
  11. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    BTS 6 is roughly the same in cost as ARM2; now, on a Jayth is quite useless unless you want him to camp in a Biotechvore zone or tank Nanopulsar/pulzar/technical weapons, on that I agree.

    As for the Berserker, I got it mixed up and thought they had it instead of MA3.

    Anyway, my point is that the Jayth are not "overcosted". Badly desgined, I won't disagree, but they cost what I think is a fair price for what they carry (again, said gear being all around the place or the unit attempting to be a multipurpose one that has little relation to what shas traditionally is, is something entirely different).
     
    AdmiralJCJF likes this.
  12. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
    Warcor

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    sadly fully agree, new renders looks gorgeous, but profiles are lacklustre. For me they were even a hard sell in the end of N3 with that 22pt profile
     
  13. Bellyflop

    Bellyflop Well-Known Member

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    I agree they are pricey and fill a strange battlefield role. If you really want to use them maybe try them on Panic Room, The Armory, or Power Pack? They won't really need to go far, but the Shotgun changes are really harsh on them.
     
  14. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    This is really the core of CB’s under- and over-priced units problem. They have a formula and mostly stick to it, but the formula doesn’t really capture synergy very well. So you can end up with a unit that is more or less efficient, while still adhering to the basic gear and skill pricing. However, some units can perform better than others at the same cost, which still makes some units end up looking and feeling bad.
     
  15. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Also the cost formula doesn't account for external synergies. The Kosmosoldat would be worth his points if he could join teams of Frontoviks, not the other way round.
     
    toadchild likes this.
  16. JordanJoestar

    JordanJoestar Member

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    We're getting 5 separate sculpts (6 with Sargy) for these chonky boys and they can't even form a core.
    This would still not make them viable or anything but it would at least look rad.
     
  17. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    6 sculpts and I just want a good reason to even field one. Let's not get ahead of ourselves with this 'fireteam' talk.
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    Really didn't help that everything around them shifted by a lot.
    In N3 they were fairly expensive for their kit next to Sheskiin and Caliban.
    In N4 they're pretty expensive in a world where BSGs are DTWs, hybrid CC+BS troops mostly got significantly cheaper/faster and Order efficiency is even more important.
    New and improved Caliban in a similar role makes them a big questionmark. Their guns lost too, being reliant on them yet only having bog standard weapon is decent but nothing amazing on them.
     
  19. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I ran the base 25pt guy in a game of mindwipe yesterday. First time I'd put a Jayth on the board and I knew going in that he wasn't optimal. I wasn't sure what my opponent was bringing but it turned out to be invincibles so I thought perfect! The Jayth is the perfect defender for my servers with his access to EM. Turns out he didn't get man orders spent on him because my midfield skirmishers were very order hungry. He basically got close enough to an enemy HI to spec fire one grenade (miss), and spend the rest of the game waiting to be released to chop a console in half...

    I can see using the 25 point guy as a defence against whatever may push aggressively into your lines - if your opponent likes to push a HI haris or super-HI into your DZ and end his turn on suppressive fire, I think the Jayth is where it's at. Using the SMG profile to start the game in supressive fire could also be useful with his kit, I just don't see a lot of functional synergy with the rest of the army for the points cost when compared to Caliban in particular

    Based on their fluff I think that the Jayth are a missed opportunity - I would love to see them be infiltration + hidden deployment models without a marker state (i think they'd be the first of their kind?) to represent them actually ...tunneling onto the battlefield.
     
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  20. Bobblehead

    Bobblehead Well-Known Member

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    Use them as Daturatzi proxies in vanilla. That's the plan anyway since i like the them more than Datz, then use the Datz as Krakots if you reeeeeally ned one.
     
    Golem2God likes this.